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+--- Thread: Mandatory Vaccinations (/showthread.php?tid=37203)
Mandatory Vaccinations - Kabanaw - 2011-02-02
kanevaldier Wrote:Thats my point. We have to get flu vaccinations every year...if that is mutating every year then maybe the vaccines are causing the mutation. If you over expose then a mutation is bound to happen. Life, no matter the form, will find a way to continue to exist. How is it that our ancestors made it without vaccines?
By spewing out so many babies that a few were bound to survive.
Mandatory Vaccinations - Kalovale - 2011-02-02
kanevaldier Wrote:Thats my point. We have to get flu vaccinations every year...if that is mutating every year then maybe the vaccines are causing the mutation.
I certainly would NOT give someone like you the freedom of choice regarding vaccination. If you're thinking like that, how are you to expect the commoner people to be able to make educated decisions?
Mandatory Vaccinations - Eos - 2011-02-02
kanevaldier Wrote:How is it that our ancestors made it without vaccines?
By losing droves and going through wave after wave of hysteria every time a plague occurred.
The talk about the rights of the minority mentioned earlier? People were trampled, burned and forcibly evicted from towns just at the mere thought they might have something that could spread to others. People poisoned themselves with umimaginably stupid things in the hope they'd be cures or immunize them.
You have to get flu vaccines every year because it changes. Most don't. HIV is another example - You can't vaccinate it (yet) because it's a particularly unstable little bugger. Doesn't mean they all are. The dangerous ones that can be vaccinated against and minimized or removed entirely should be. Having our immune systems prepped for as many infectious agents as possible is an advantage by any measure.
Mandatory Vaccinations - kanevaldier - 2011-02-02
I am not saying that everyone should have my view on this. All I am saying is that we should have the right to choose not to get the vaccines.
Mandatory Vaccinations - Eos - 2011-02-02
kanevaldier Wrote:I am not saying that everyone should have my view on this. All I am saying is that we should have the right to choose not to get the vaccines.
And we explained why that represents a danger to more people than making them mandatory for potentially fatal illnesses does.
To add to that since you brought mutation up as a concern - the more an illness circulates the more chance it has to evolve into something more dangerous, therefore that's an additional risk people who have been vaccinated represent.
Mandatory Vaccinations - Shidoshi - 2011-02-02
kanevaldier Wrote:I am not saying that everyone should have my view on this. All I am saying is that we should have the right to choose not to get the vaccines.
No, because some people SHARE the same view as you we CAN'T have the option of not getting vaccinated. The whole society pays for the health of each person so you shouldn't just increase your chances to get a disease and be more costly to the society (not even accounting for making other people more succeptible to the viruses by not taking the vaccine).
And no, you are not allowed to express your view as a valid one when you are spilling non-sense about biology that you should have learned in school. Spreading FUD about vaccines is not a good thing and has to be fought against.
Mandatory Vaccinations - Eos - 2011-02-02
Shidoshi Wrote:And no, you are not allowed to express your view as a valid one when you are spilling non-sense about biology that you should have learned in school. Spreading FUD about vaccines is not a good thing and has to be fought against.
He's perfectly welcome to express his views - Discussing it is the only way to educate and he's not the only one with these views.
If an open and frank discussion of why they don't makes sense helps others understand the value of vaccination then the conversation was a good one to have even if it hasn't changed his views.
Mandatory Vaccinations - kanevaldier - 2011-02-02
Eosian Wrote:To add to that since you brought mutation up as a concern - the more an illness circulates the more chance it has to evolve into something more dangerous, therefore that's an additional risk people who have been vaccinated represent.
If that were true then we would never have had an outbreak of small pox a few years ago.
Mandatory Vaccinations - Eos - 2011-02-02
kanevaldier Wrote:If that were true then we would never have had an outbreak of small pox a few years ago.
See previous statements regarding Resistance != Immunity.
Illness does not spontaneously form, it has to have a carrier or adapt from something else.
Mandatory Vaccinations - kanevaldier - 2011-02-02
I am extremely healthy. I literally have only had 2 "colds" in the last 15 years and neither of those lasted more than a couple of days. I never get flu shots. Not once in all my life have I gotten the flu.
Mandatory Vaccinations - Eos - 2011-02-02
That really has nothing to do with the rest of the conversation - Most people are "really healthy"; until they're not.
You're trying to connect unrelated dots there.
Mandatory Vaccinations - Kabanaw - 2011-02-02
kanevaldier Wrote:I am extremely healthy. I literally have only had 2 "colds" in the last 15 years and neither of those lasted more than a couple of days. I never get flu shots. Not once in all my life have I gotten the flu.
Congradulations, you proved that vaccines don't work. Because you are the complete representation of all of humanity.
Mandatory Vaccinations - FrozNlite - 2011-02-02
kanevaldier Wrote:Thats my point. We have to get flu vaccinations every year...if that is mutating every year then maybe the vaccines are causing the mutation. If you over expose then a mutation is bound to happen. Life, no matter the form, will find a way to continue to exist. How is it that our ancestors made it without vaccines?
Oh my god kill me. Thank you, biologically-minded intellectuals, for posting again and again to combat this kind of complete ineptitude and misinformation throughout this thread.
But this is just ridiculous. You're blaming vaccines on mutations? Pathogenic Biology 101: First, re-read Eos' and others' definitions of vaccine. They're quite accurate. To create a metaphor for those more inclined, a vaccine is like the data programs from The Matrix - when Neo needed to learn something, such as martial arts or how to fly a helicopter, his compadres in the real world simply uploaded a training program into his mind that taught him everything he needed to know to succeed. Similarly, a vaccine is just a new version of a program that updates your immune system on the latest threat to your body, without your body having to deal with it for real.
Second, understand that a vaccine is quite literally only one physical form of the pathogen, so in examples like the annual influenza vaccine, you need a new dose every year because certain pathogens mutate quickly enough to become unrecognizable by the "old program version," aka last year's vaccine.
Third, pathogens do not mutate inside vaccinated individuals because the immune systems of those individuals immediately recognize and eliminate the pathogens. Duh. Instead, the mutations that arise every year in, we'll use influenza as an example again, come from - wait for it - the people who opted out of vaccinations, who contract the disease and give it a beautiful host body to multiply trillions of times in, many of which with our infamous mutations.
So to spell it out for the skeptics (since I don't think it's been fully stated yet), the reason EVERYONE should get vaccinations is because those who don't stand a greater chance of contacting the disease, on average, than those who are vaccinated, and by simply contracting a disease you're opening up new possibilities for mutation that endangers everyone else, vaccinated or not, because the vaccines only recognize one form of the pathogen.
Skeptics, please go read Demon in the Freezer by Richard Preston. It chronicles the eradication of smallpox and explains circle vaccinations as the best strategy to putting out a "hot virus." Hopefully you'll learn how these things work now instead of making idiotic comments, like one of my earlier favorite's in which someone called influenza a retrovirus.
Wikipedia that pomegranate before you post falsities.
Kabanaw Wrote:Congradulations, you proved that vaccines don't work. Because you are the complete representation of all of humanity.
This as well, x 10000000. I hate it when healthy people ignorantly state that they're healthy, so there's no reason they need to worry about protecting themselves.
The point of vaccinations, health insurance, auto insurance, or just similar insurance policies in general is that they protect you against the less-possible yet still probable horrible possibilities. It boggles my mind how so many people opt out of protecting themselves and their assets with insurance across the board because they think they're invincible.
Mandatory Vaccinations - kanevaldier - 2011-02-02
Those of you that dont believe in the problems with vaccinations really should read this.
http://curezone.com/art/read.asp?ID=12&db=12&C0=735
Mandatory Vaccinations - Jamie_Kurosawa - 2011-02-02
I'm allergic to the Flu shot (however I'm not allergic to eggs or poultry). Last time (and first time) I took it, I broke out in a rash and hives from head to tow. Never again...
Mandatory Vaccinations - Shidoshi - 2011-02-02
kanevaldier Wrote:Those of you that dont believe in the problems with vaccinations really should read this.No one said they don't believe in the problems of vaccinations. Stop ignoring what people post.
http://curezone.com/art/read.asp?ID=12&db=12&C0=735
Jamie_Kurosawa Wrote:I'm allergic to the Flu shot (however I'm not allergic to eggs or poultry). Last time (and first time) I took it, I broke out in a rash and hives from head to tow. Never again...Cool story, bro. Relevance to the thread? None.
Mandatory Vaccinations - Stereo - 2011-02-03
FrozNlite Wrote:So to spell it out for the skeptics (since I don't think it's been fully stated yet), the reason EVERYONE should get vaccinations is because those who don't stand a greater chance of contacting the disease, on average, than those who are vaccinated, and by simply contracting a disease you're opening up new possibilities for mutation that endangers everyone else, vaccinated or not, because the vaccines only recognize one form of the pathogen.
Just want to extract this point from the post because it bears repeating -
When you refuse a vaccine, not only do you endanger yourself, but you endanger every person you come into contact with on a daily basis.
It's all very well to say you're willing to risk measles/mumps/rubella because you prefer those to a hypothetical possibility of autism (not that they've ever been conclusively linked) - but making that decision for other people is callous and foolhardy.
When you look at statistics like, "75% of infected had been vaccinated", in a population where vaccination rates are around 95%:
- by choosing not to get the vaccine you've infected 3 people who do not want the disease
- there are 19 times as many vaccinated as unvaccinated. That means the chance of infection is 3/19 as much in the vaccinated population. Only about 1/6 as many people caught the disease after being vaccinated. That's pretty friggin awesome, when you think about it. 5 people who no longer have to worry about hospital time, drugs, time off work, or potentially even worse issues.
In order to demonstrate that a vaccine is ineffective, the infected and uninfected populations would need to be indistinguishable: if 95% of the general population is vaccinated, then 95% of the infected population is also vaccinated. As soon as the second percent drops below the first percent, you have a statistically useful vaccine. When it drops to the point where it prevents 84% of infections I'd say that's a pretty good result.
Mandatory Vaccinations - Jamie_Kurosawa - 2011-02-03
Actually it has complete relevance to the topic Shidoshi. Look for the underlying meaning here. Vaccinations are good (this is unquestionable), and many like the polio vaccine, for example, have prevented lots of illnesses around the world, but the problem is people today are being over-vaccinated and the quality control of many fad vaccines is very poor.
What many people don't know is the safety of some vaccines and if they will or will not have an allergic reaction to a vaccine they may get to prevent an illness, or get a vaccine and get a worse or mutated form of the disease. Most of these fad vaccines like flu, pneumonia, and other seasonal vaccines mutate too often to be of usage. Even then the quality control of many is very poor and many of these fad vaccines are often contaminated with other diseases or stronger mutated forms of the disease that could place the person receiving them at a higher risk.
As for Autism... I'm going to say this is unrelated to vaccines. Instead, if you want to look for it's possible roots, look at what you feed your kids and yourself in regards to preservatives and hormones. Let's leave vaccines out of that equation.
Back on topic, basic vaccines like measles, rubella, polio, and mumps are a must, but seriously, most illnesses are actually safer to get and fight off naturally with antibiotics and antivirals rather than a vaccines that will become ineffective after several months when the disease mutates into a new form like the flu and cold.
Mandatory Vaccinations - kanevaldier - 2011-02-03
Stereo Wrote:When you refuse a vaccine, not only do you endanger yourself, but you endanger every person you come into contact with on a daily basis.
You really need to read this to understand my position on this issue. If you are really as concerned with those who dont get vaccinated, reading this may open your eyes to the other dangers of getting vaccinated.
http://curezone.com/art/read.asp?ID=12&db=12&C0=735
Mandatory Vaccinations - Eos - 2011-02-03
kanevaldier Wrote:You really need to read this to understand my position on this issue. If you are really as concerned with those who dont get vaccinated, reading this may open your eyes to the other dangers of getting vaccinated.
http://curezone.com/art/read.asp?ID=12&db=12&C0=735
Does it concern you at all that the only places on the Internet that link to this article, that's over a decade old mind you, also advocate creatonism and claim to debunk darwinism?