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+--- Thread: 4th job Single Target DPS (/showthread.php?tid=6564)
4th job Single Target DPS - 2MinNoodles - 2011-01-15
hamad138 Wrote:edit:checking
Are you sure you're comparing the total dps, not just the dps of the main attacks?
4th job Single Target DPS - Link - 2011-01-15
Wait... What? Vipers have THE SINGLE LOWEST DPS in the game?
So, we went from being the worst DPS class in the game with a very good play style to having a very, very shitty play style with the single worst DPS in the game. Very good job, Nexon. I see where your "balance" lies. Vipers are obviously not liked in Nexon's eyes.
4th job Single Target DPS - Shidoshi - 2011-01-15
ShiKage Wrote:Wait... What? Vipers have THE SINGLE LOWEST DPS in the game?
So, we went from being the worst DPS class in the game with a very good play style to having a very, very shitty play style with the single worst DPS in the game. Very good job, Nexon. I see where your "balance" lies. Vipers are obviously not liked in Nexon's eyes.
They are ahead of bishops! =P
4th job Single Target DPS - Takebacker - 2011-01-15
ShiKage Wrote:Wait... What? Vipers have THE SINGLE LOWEST DPS in the game?
So, we went from being the worst DPS class in the game with a very good play style to having a very, very shitty play style with the single worst DPS in the game. Very good job, Nexon. I see where your "balance" lies. Vipers are obviously not liked in Nexon's eyes.
At least the best part about being the "weakest" class in the entire game is we have nothing but buffs to look forward to.
4th job Single Target DPS - hamad138 - 2011-01-15
We hit 35~50% crit at a 55% or 65% rate. This is a 55% or 65% chance of a 42.5% crit.
This results in a 23.375% or 27.625% damage boost.
not 119
4th job Single Target DPS - Tamillan - 2011-01-15
Yea buccs needs boost for sure. Poor dmg atm. Im pretty sure nexon will boost it up eventually. I doubt NLs will get boost since they put it to 345% TT and nerfed it to 293%TT. Roar. Idc if the % gets increased, but i dont want to lose my high avoid. f5.
4th job Single Target DPS - Link - 2011-01-15
Takebacker Wrote:At least the best part about being the "weakest" class in the entire game is we have nothing but buffs to look forward to.
And nothing but unwanted at bossing? Yeah...
Vipers = the true solo class, except we can't solo (well), so...
4th job Single Target DPS - KhainiWest - 2011-01-15
ShiKage Wrote:Wait... What? Vipers have THE SINGLE LOWEST DPS in the game?
So, we went from being the worst DPS class in the game with a very good play style to having a very, very shitty play style with the single worst DPS in the game. Very good job, Nexon. I see where your "balance" lies. Vipers are obviously not liked in Nexon's eyes.
Just curious, who do you think belongs there?
4th job Single Target DPS - Takebacker - 2011-01-15
ShiKage Wrote:And nothing but unwanted at bossing? Yeah...
Vipers = the true solo class, except we can't solo (well), so...
I boss all the time so i dunno what you're talking about. Maybe it's different for you because apparently JMSers are retarded, but whatever.
I solo like all the bosses in this game that is advantagous for me to do so, including ones that other classes could never dream of killing.
4th job Single Target DPS - Jellyflower - 2011-01-16
One bucc in a party of 4 melee + ranged/bishop, with 3 warriors (non drk) using fast 5 weapon. SI boosts those 3 warriors by 9.5% dps each, so it's like 28.5% in absolute terms. Time leap is a godsend. Barrage keeps mobile bosses kbed for long. Buccs might be weak, and they are nowhere unwanted in boss runs. DPS isn't everything, and it only really matters if you're doing certain bosses daily and with a few selected persons or by solo.
And where's the update version of the sheet, I want to see what the numbers look like now.
4th job Single Target DPS - Link - 2011-01-16
DustBunny Wrote:Just curious, who do you think belongs there?
No class should really be the bottom of the DPS, aside from, of course, Bishops, who are the supportive class. But to have one class more than 2x more powerful than another DPS-dealing class is just f'ucking retarded. Seriously...? -.-
I wouldn't be so upset about being the single lowest DPS class in the game (of course with the exception of Bishops, but they're a special case) if it weren't for the fact that not only are we outshined by just about everyone in training, but we have nothing special about our class anymore. What do we have? A skill that has a miniscule chance to give a miniscule increase in experience? So what? If we can't even kill monsters, not bosses... MONSTERS as fast as the rest of the classes, what's the point in not being able to catch up in experience per hour even with the experience buff?
-We're boring
-We suck at training in comparison to other classes
-Our play style is probably one of the worst in the game... Run and Dragon Strike while trying to get hit so we could have chance of gaining an insignificant amount of damage and barely even killing fast enough to level once with your sanity in tact. Sure, it's not a CONSTANT spam of a single skill, like some classes, but using a variety will only make our horrible experience gain worse.
-We suck the worst at bossing, by quite a big gap.
-We're slow... Just plain slow.
What GOOD do we have? That we look "cool" (which is a matter of perspective) in a transformed state? That we're the only class who can fight bare-fisted (except, now we don't even have a way to even kill anything without a knuckle...)?
Our specialty, which was helping certain DPS classes boost their slow attacking speed was out-shined by Battle Mages, a class with much better support and damage, and then all we have left is Time Leap... No one ever even uses this, with the availability of Wheels from the cash shop AND the huge decrease in damage dealt by monsters and bosses. There's absolutely no point in playing the Viper class anymore, except for the case of those who were stuck playing one in the first place with nothing else to hop to without training a new character to an equal or higher level, or just to be one of the rarest classes in the game.
Of course, my argument only works in the case of those of us who can't shell out hundreds of dollars a week for a high chance at wasting money on potential gear, or those of us who can't merchant the hell out of the economy and make billions of mesos a day to hope to afford the cubed items other people have made.
4th job Single Target DPS - Takebacker - 2011-01-16
Why is it retarded? Buccaneers have a ton of advantages over heroes and corsairs and AMs and a lot of other classes that have nothing really to do with DPS. Buccaneers can do things that others can't, and other classes can do things that buccaneers can't.
As far as training goes...a lot of people would agree that dragon strike is one of the best training skills in the entire game post-BB. It's fast, has long and tall range, has very high BASE power, can be used safely from a far distance on targets that could otherwise kill you, and it's delay is short enough where monsters sometimes won't even be able to strike back if you're standing far away enough.
Bossing i've already argued against. You're not really giving very strong arguments that say we suck or are unwanted at bossing. There are a lot of classes that can't fight bodyguard A, but i can solo him with extremely minimal funding for the average character my level.
Play style is not only subjective but at the same time how the hell is it boring? Taking away some iframes and making some important skills spammable only raises the potential of this class. You can still be invincible with CSB+barrage in dojo. You can come to a platform in a training map with mobs scattered all around and with the various mob control skills move them into a nice clean lump in a few seconds to rush around and kill. Other classes have to focus on one side and then move on. Buccaneers can focus on the entire horizontal display of their screen and use it to their advantage.
Also, fighting barefisted could prove to be an important advantage later on. The cygnus queen can nullify potentials. It's not unfathomable to imagine a boss that unequips weapons for a short time. Other classes would be useless, but we would still be able to keep the boss at bay with barrage while the squad gets to safety.
4th job Single Target DPS - Link - 2011-01-16
Please, tell me these advantages, because I see none. Absolutely none. What can Vipers do that no other can?
4th job Single Target DPS - Takebacker - 2011-01-16
ShiKage Wrote:Please, tell me these advantages, because I see none. Absolutely none. What can Vipers do that no other can?
Well i didn't say that vipers can do things that NO OTHER class could EVER do, but...
1) Can fight pap exclusively on 1.3x.
2) Mob up a platform faster than any class. Warriors being the only class with mob movement skills that compare, but buccaneers do it while doing more damage and 3 mob movement skills used for completely different reasons > 2 that are used practically with no real difference in the end result.
3) Fight bosses with controlled/minimal pot usage regardless of funding. Thieves i guess being the only one to compare, but they do it through sheer luck with their avoid rather than invincibility frames (b-step excluded). This is something every single other class pretty much cannot do but it depends on the boss at the same time.
4) We have more skills whose use depend entirely on the kind of situation we are in than any other class, which grant us a lot of advantages in the weirdest of ways.
5) Longest invincibility combo of any class. Barrage into demolition grants at least 5 seconds of complete invincibility from any attack except seduce, which no one can defend against atm.
6) Have skills that heal both HP and MP and can be used more often than other recovery skills, and in the case of drain also do more damage. Passively healing HP is ok, but i and others would rather have an attack as awesome as drain than the only other alternative to drain which would probably be passively healing HP based on damage while energy is up. Drain helps a s'hit ton at BGB who constantly drains MP, so when i'm out of ST i can stand on him and spam drain and avoid MP drain while healing HP at the same time. I could even take the MP drain and still spam drain because it doesn't cost MP to use. Aurora (evan healing) isn't quite as reliable since it has a cooldown and is position based.
4th job Single Target DPS - Link - 2011-01-16
I see nothing that makes us useful, especially when :
1) Your comment here is stupid. We have a CHANCE of getting 1.3x experience, but we're not the only class with experience increases. Captains are the single strongest class outside of Resistance and they also have an experience increase skill. What makes it better for Vipers? Especially when we're half as strong, which means it's half as likely we'll even defeat Papulatus while the 1.3x experience buff is active, if we're even lucky enough to have it activate.
2) Pushing mobs in one position, which is what I assume you mean by "mobbing up a platform," has no real use anymore with the exception of bosses who act like monsters (like Lion Heart monsters, or the Crimson Guardians in JMS), and even then... Killing them straight off is much faster than worrying about gathering mobs before you kill.
3) No HP potions. YAY WE HEAL MP EVERY 10 SECONDS... This kills us at 1/1 when we don't have energy charge up, which, by the way, kills our ability to "keep potion use controlled," since we can't heal without using HP potions if we're not within the 60 seconds that Energy Charge is up in at 30 minute boss fight. It's faster to kill a boss without using the HP/MP healing skills.
4) Okay... so we have too many skills. We only use what? 2 different attacking skills? Maybe 3... The rest of the buttons we press are buffs. During grinding, it's just run and Dragon Strike, with maybe a Screw Punch in there to push a monster. In bossing, it's just Demolition, demolition, demolition until Super Transform dies, then it's >Transform, Dragon Strike, Dragon Strike, Dragon Strike until Super Transform is ready again. YAY FOR CHANGING THINGS UP.
5) Yay... We don't get hit for 5 seconds, while also hindering our DPS even more than it already is. There's really no point in using that combo, when 90% of the time, you're not going to get hit at all while using Demolition, since the bosses would have to hit you while your character is being reset, which isn't the case most of the time, unless you're standing directly on the boss.
Viper is now THE solo class, as we're not really wanted for anything (aside for filling in as a member of a party...), except we're no good at soloing in comparison to most classes. Fun, yes?
4th job Single Target DPS - IllegallySane - 2011-01-16
Wow now I feel depressed for my character. Making a Wild Hunter as a main doesn't seem like such a bad idea now.
4th job Single Target DPS - Takebacker - 2011-01-16
ShiKage Wrote:1) Your comment here is stupid. We have a CHANCE of getting 1.3x experience, but we're not the only class with experience increases. Captains are the single strongest class outside of Resistance and they also have an experience increase skill. What makes it better for Vipers? Especially when we're half as strong, which means it's half as likely we'll even defeat Papulatus while the 1.3x experience buff is active, if we're even lucky enough to have it activate.
I never said that buccaneers were the only class with lucky dice. I often time leap when i get 1s just to have another chance at a 5 or a 6. I often time leap a 1 only to cast it again and actually get a 5 or a 6. It's great even with level 1 TL, and it'll be amazing when it's maxed and i can do it every 20/18 minutes.
Also, i can easily kill pap in a single ST cycle. Why are you making it sound like it's so hard? And what does luck have to do with it? It's just a matter of waiting on the door for 6 to show up.
ShiKage Wrote:2) Pushing mobs in one position, which is what I assume you mean by "mobbing up a platform," has no real use anymore with the exception of bosses who act like monsters (like Lion Heart monsters, or the Crimson Guardians in JMS), and even then... Killing them straight off is much faster than worrying about gathering mobs before you kill.
Killing a mob of 3 and then moving on to the next one is faster than moving them into a mob of 6 for maximum damage with orb/DS while at the same time moving your character to a different position on the map? Sounds a hell of a lot slower to me. Besides, it's more than possible to kill mobs ALONG THE WAY. It happens to me all the time and it obviously increases your training. I remember the last time we argued this same exact point and i suggested we compare our characters but you never agreed to it for some reason...
ShiKage Wrote:3) No HP potions. YAY WE HEAL MP EVERY 10 SECONDS... This kills us at 1/1 when we don't have energy charge up, which, by the way, kills our ability to "keep potion use controlled," since we can't heal without using HP potions if we're not within the 60 seconds that Energy Charge is up in at 30 minute boss fight. It's faster to kill a boss without using the HP/MP healing skills.
1/1 at what boss? I can see 1/1 from zak coming a mile away and if i'm soloing i'll have the summons to tank 100 damage anyway. 1/1 at grandpa is inevitable but it's still avoidable and not only that, but you can take multiple 1/1s and not die you know. I don't really know much about other bosses with 1/1 but i can't see why it's so hard not to avoid it. I won't agree that it's faster to pot than to drain and MP rec, but i'll agree that it's faster for the run if you don't. That's still not the point anyway. Buccaneers inherintly use less pots than most other classes, and buccaneers aren't the only class able to conserve pots, but they're certainly the best because they can FREELY HEAL BOTH a majority of the time.
ShiKage Wrote:4) Okay... so we have too many skills. We only use what? 2 different attacking skills? Maybe 3... The rest of the buttons we press are buffs. During grinding, it's just run and Dragon Strike, with maybe a Screw Punch in there to push a monster. In bossing, it's just Demolition, demolition, demolition until Super Transform dies, then it's >Transform, Dragon Strike, Dragon Strike, Dragon Strike until Super Transform is ready again. YAY FOR CHANGING THINGS UP.
This doesn't really disprove the point. I wasn't really referring to bossing with that statement.
And by the way, in bossing, i don't always spam dragon strike. In zak if my ST runs out i will barr+DU if mag cancel is up because i don't want to kill the summons. If wep cancel is up and ST is down i will use barrel until wep cancel is done. If i'm with someone else and they want to attack, i'll usually spam DS.
ShiKage Wrote:5) Yay... We don't get hit for 5 seconds, while also hindering our DPS even more than it already is. There's really no point in using that combo, when 90% of the time, you're not going to get hit at all while using Demolition, since the bosses would have to hit you while your character is being reset, which isn't the case most of the time, unless you're standing directly on the boss.
Pinning bosses.
Avoiding fatal attacks.
Taking less hits, saving more pots.
3 reasons i would use this combo. Think in terms of the cygnus queen and potion cooldown situations and you'll see there are a lot more advantages your class has that you're just ignoring for the sake of clinging on to the lowest DPS spot. o.o
ShiKage Wrote:Viper is now THE solo class, as we're not really wanted for anything (aside for filling in as a member of a party...), except we're no good at soloing in comparison to most classes. Fun, yes?
Like i said, i solo bosses other classes can't, and jellyflower already gave you great points as to why buccaneers are far from unwanted at bosses. If neo tokyo was out in GMS, i would solo all the bosses that i was able to as well. I really don't see why you don't already.
4th job Single Target DPS - Link - 2011-01-16
You're about Vipers from YOUR shoes. You're pretty strong for a Viper, whether you think so or not. Think of it in everyone's view, especially the not-so-funded ones. Think of the ones that are JUST STARTING OUT as a Viper. Unlike most classes, who have a singular skill that serves the purpose of both grinding and bossing, Vipers don't have any good potential at bosses until way later on. Vipers have extremely slow development and are still the weakest class.
YOU may be able to kill Papulatus in a single go, but not everyone can. I have trouble taking down Papulatus in under 3 minutes and I have a lot of attack bonuses from equipment and stuff, though I have not a single potential gear that would help me significantly. Anyone weaker doesn't have a chance of being able to sit there and wait for a 6 to be rolled to decided to face the boss. Hell, I can't even do that, if I do my best. When I roll my dice and start Super Transform, it's only after I've summoned Papulatus, killed the Time Sphere, and then have Papulatus against the wall and have climbed up on that platform where I'm safe from his stun/dispel skills.
Vipers aren't effective at pinning or pushing bosses anywhere like they were before Big Bang. This means Warriors have the same ability. Rush has about the same exact delay time as Screw Punch. The last time I tried, Back Elbow isn't nearly as efficient at pushing or pinning bosses... It's not a good idea to rely on it.
4th job Single Target DPS - Takebacker - 2011-01-16
ShiKage Wrote:You're about Vipers from YOUR shoes. You're pretty strong for a Viper, whether you think so or not. Think of it in everyone's view, especially the not-so-funded ones. Think of the ones that are JUST STARTING OUT as a Viper. Unlike most classes, who have a singular skill that serves the purpose of both grinding and bossing, Vipers don't have any good potential at bosses until way later on. Vipers have extremely slow development and are still the weakest class.
The only funding i have is from the money i've pumped into this game over the course of the past 2 years since i've had this character. None of it amounts to s'hit because the average player is WAY STRONGER THAN ME because of potential system. The average player my level has at LEAST 35-40% main stat, while i only have 18%. I am not strong. I am only just barely strong enough to do things people consider to require "significant" funding to pull off and the only reason i do such things is because i'm stubborn. (killing a boss for 3 hours for experience that is far less than what i would get training is pretty stubborn and stupid, but it's fun so i don't give a s'hit)
I don't really see the point of bringing up the ones just starting out. We're discussing advantages of this class, things that this class can pull off that others cannot or can compete with us with some difficulty. Vipers are slow in development i'll give you that but even so you're still completely ignoring the fact that DPS is completely irrelevant to the actual game. It's completely based on individual funding. And no i don't think their only potential is "way later on". We are perfectly capable of bossing early on and until then we still train well enough where getting to the point of maximum potential is not difficult.
ShiKage Wrote:YOU may be able to kill Papulatus in a single go, but not everyone can. I have trouble taking down Papulatus in under 3 minutes and I have a lot of attack bonuses from equipment and stuff, though I have not a single potential gear that would help me significantly. Anyone weaker doesn't have a chance of being able to sit there and wait for a 6 to be rolled to decided to face the boss.
And it's because you don't have anything potentialed that this argument doesn't really hold bearing. You're the only person i know who actually claims to not have a SINGLE potentialed item. The AVERAGE PLAYER is easily capable of doing the things i describe in my posts, and just because someone who is weaker cannot does not in any way make the class worse overall.
ShiKage Wrote:Vipers aren't effective at pinning or pushing bosses anywhere like they were before Big Bang. This means Warriors have the same ability. Rush has about the same exact delay time as Screw Punch. The last time I tried, Back Elbow isn't nearly as efficient at pushing or pinning bosses... It's not a good idea to rely on it.
How has their pinning and pushing abilities gotten worse at all? Barrage still auto-KB's and CSB/BSB still move bosses.
The only time i use BSB to push a boss is if i'm trying to avoid getting stunned at BGA. I'm not really seeing the advantage warriors have over buccaneers in terms of pinning bosses. Barrage is the only skill buccaneers have ever been known for that helps a group for pinning a boss.
4th job Single Target DPS - hadriel - 2011-01-16
Let's keep this focused, shall we? This thread is about DPS, not about Bucc's pros and cons.
By the way, control is what makes a player a good player. Not damage. TL is a godsend for major bosses.
About potential: I am a very new player to GMS: I've not played MSEA for over 9 months so no talk about potentialed EQ. Since I started during Evolving Ring event, my BmG has about every EQ potentialed through normal hunting (except my clean normal Blue Marine to replace my potentialed 91TMA EW). Nothing fantastic really. Not a single +%INT eq, but I'm doing enough damage to boss. The only reason why I can fathom one not having potentialed EQ is that the original EQ set is already scrolled. That still doesn't make me very much weaker than most people - I'm stronger than the average in fact.
I have to agree with Takebaker that Buccs can boss early enough. Already with the 2nd job skills, the invincibility frames and damage avoiding parts save me a huge amount of pots and time. Take any normal unfunded class, fit it with standard EQ and try going up against Rock Spirit. If you have sufficient control, infighters can kill it fairly quickly with minimal pots. That's what I call a good solo bossing class. DB is a different story altogether though.
About Battle Mages: I bet 90% of parties would rather a Battle Mage use DA/ADA than use AYA, because a 30% damage increase cannot beat the DPS increase by moving the attack speed up 1 step. SI does 2 steps at 11. Sure we make big numbers (70k for a unfunded normal Battle Mage at level 103 is a little big IMO) and we have support skills that make us wanted, but we're not exactly the most survivable class, and unless we use a godly EW or elemental staves or Arcanon we're painfully slow. There are only a couple of classes that I would pick if I were to do a solo a boss: Sniper, Bucc, Pala. Maybe a Mech which isn't out yet. DB needs NX so out of the question. Minimal pot usage and survivability is what matters to me, and I think that's what makes Buccs an outstanding class.
Don't let numbers blind you. The pen is mightier than the sword, but when it's time to pick up the sword no amount of ink can make the pen sharper than a sword.
Hadriel