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+--- Thread: A Song of Ice and Mafia (/showthread.php?tid=72435)
A Song of Ice and Mafia - VerrKol - 2014-09-04
y0y0y0y0shi0 Wrote:Did anyone /really/ like Stannis anyway though?
I mean Davos has his boner for Stannis but I'm pretty sure everyone's just sort of universally meh with him.
As with many GoT characters, he's not meant to be liked. While his lawfulness has a certain appeal, he'd make a terrible king for Westeros. Hell, the only person who would make a good king would be Tyrion.
A Song of Ice and Mafia - y0y0y0y0shi0 - 2014-09-04
MasPan Wrote:D&D Paladin.which pretty much speaks for itself on how much everyone doesn't care about him
A Song of Ice and Mafia - MasPan - 2014-09-04
VerrKol Wrote:As with many GoT characters, he's not meant to be liked. While his lawfulness has a certain appeal, he'd make a terrible king for Westeros. Hell, the only person who would make a good king would be Tyrion.[COLOR="#cc8899"]
Even he would be an awful king - he's a drunkard and a womanizer (though not quite so bad as Robert). He's also fairly vulnerable due to his size, which undermines the air of authority he would need to project. [/COLOR]
A Song of Ice and Mafia - y0y0y0y0shi0 - 2014-09-04
Olenna Tyrell, best king 2014
A Song of Ice and Mafia - VerrKol - 2014-09-04
MasPan Wrote:[COLOR="#cc8899"]
Even he would be an awful king - he's a drunkard and a womanizer (though not quite so bad as Robert). He's also fairly vulnerable due to his size, which undermines the air of authority he would need to project. [/COLOR]
I was actually thinking he has the right personality to be a good king. He'd be a great king IF he wasn't a dwarf since that would eliminate the drinking and womanizing which I don't think are all that problematic in a king anyway.
A Song of Ice and Mafia - Polantaris - 2014-09-04
y0y0y0y0shi0 Wrote:Did anyone /really/ like Stannis anyway though?
I mean Davos has his boner for Stannis but I'm pretty sure everyone's just sort of universally meh with him.
I like him in that he would be a good army commander, but not a king. He can lead his troops well, but everything I've seen of him leads me to believe he would be almost as shitty as Robert if he became King.
A Song of Ice and Mafia - Niernen - 2014-09-04
I probably shouldn't have joined without knowing more about the series
A Song of Ice and Mafia - Holypie - 2014-09-05
Hey I actually like Stannis! He showed that he's the only king who actually gave a pomegranate about the realm when he rode up to stop the wildlings. Everyone else was just squabbling over the Iron Throne, but what does that matter if the kingdom is overrun? There's a fantastic line in the books:
"Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." -Stannis
Additionally, he actually looks past status to see the merit of a person, as exemplified by Davos. None of the other lords will give him the time of day but Stannis raised him from a lowborn smuggler to a lord and Hand, because Davos isn't afraid to be honest with him. Robert said something about everyone at court being a flatterer or a fool, which is pretty much true save for Davos, and Stannis can see past his birth to recognize that.
Okay rant over, Stannis the Mannis is great. I think he's portrayed in a much more negative light in the show, which colours a lot of people's perceptions of him, even when reading the books afterwards.
y0y0y0y0shi0 Wrote:Olenna Tyrell, best king 2014
Can't argue with this right here.
A Song of Ice and Mafia - MasPan - 2014-09-05
Holypie Wrote:Hey I actually like Stannis! He showed that he's the only king who actually gave a pomegranate about the realm when he rode up to stop the wildlings. Everyone else was just squabbling over the Iron Throne, but what does that matter if the kingdom is overrun? There's a fantastic line in the books:
"Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." -Stannis
Additionally, he actually looks past status to see the merit of a person, as exemplified by Davos. None of the other lords will give him the time of day but Stannis raised him from a lowborn smuggler to a lord and Hand, because Davos isn't afraid to be honest with him. Robert said something about everyone at court being a flatterer or a fool, which is pretty much true save for Davos, and Stannis can see past his birth to recognize that.
Okay rant over, Stannis the Mannis is great. I think he's portrayed in a much more negative light in the show, which colours a lot of people's perceptions of him, even when reading the books afterwards.
Can't argue with this right here.
[COLOR="#cc8899"]I agree with all of your points, but the argument still holds that he would be very bad for the realm. He is fixated on absolute black and white, right and wrong. He has no charisma or inter-personal skills with which to conduct politics and is unlikely to be able to make a hard decision in order to do good for the realm if it would violate his sense of legal ethics. He, Renly, and Robert are aptly contrasted at various moments. If anything, the three of them together would've made a powerful ruling authority, but each on an individual basis has a critical failing:
Robert is an excellent warrior and has the stubborn motivation necessary to pursue a goal, but quickly becomes bored and disinterested when he does not have a "battle" to fight.
Renly is charming and suave and has the confidence of youth. He is able to amass more followers than any other pursuant to the throne despite having the comparatively weakest claim and would have been a powerful political force when he grew into maturity.
Stannis is steadfast and rigid, willing to uphold the law first and foremost, even when it would hurt his political influence. He would make an excellent judge or arbiter, perhaps even a Hand or a traveling extension of the King's justice. However, he is a cold, bitter man with little interest in interpersonal relationships. He has a massive failing where politics is concerned, which would eventually erode his political support or allow a rival to gather influence during his reign.
Together they could each have worked to their strengths, with Renly promoting Robert's rule and garnering support and Stannis resolving disputes and enforcing justice. Robert as a figurehead becomes necessary during times of war and his brothers essentially mitigate his failings in times of peace.
[/COLOR]
A Song of Ice and Mafia - VerrKol - 2014-09-05
There's a line somewhere in a book where Martin compares the three brothers to metal. Renley is gold- shiny but soft and malleable. Stannis is iron- strong but brittle, he will never bend but break. I forget about Robert.
I actually hadn't considered Olenna and she could really work well. But I maintain that Tyrion is the only lord who can play the game of thrones with all it's underhanded deals and speeches while keeping the best interests of the realm in mind. Much like in LOTR, he's the obviously the real hero of the story.
Daenerys has the charisma and birthright, but she uses her dragons as a crutch to get people to do what she wants.
A Song of Ice and Mafia - MasPan - 2014-09-05
VerrKol Wrote:There's a line somewhere in a book where Martin compares the three brothers to metal. Renley is gold- shiny but soft and malleable. Stannis is iron- strong but brittle, he will never bend but break. I forget about Robert.[COLOR="#cc8899"]
I actually hadn't considered Olenna and she could really work well. But I maintain that Tyrion is the only lord who can play the game of thrones with all it's underhanded deals and speeches while keeping the best interests of the realm in mind. Much like in LOTR, he's the obviously the real hero of the story.
Daenerys has the charisma and birthright, but she uses her dragons as a crutch to get people to do what she wants.
Daenerys is also a kid who is growing rapidly into maturity alongside her dragons. She's learning pretty quickly to have influence that isn't directly tied in to them, but they're also basically a part of herself. I think Robert was steel, btw. For some reason I was thinking Renley was bronze.[/COLOR]
A Song of Ice and Mafia - Holypie - 2014-09-05
MasPan Wrote:[COLOR="#cc8899"]I agree with all of your points, but the argument still holds that he would be very bad for the realm. He is fixated on absolute black and white, right and wrong. He has no charisma or inter-personal skills with which to conduct politics and is unlikely to be able to make a hard decision in order to do good for the realm if it would violate his sense of legal ethics. He, Renly, and Robert are aptly contrasted at various moments. If anything, the three of them together would've made a powerful ruling authority, but each on an individual basis has a critical failing:
Robert is an excellent warrior and has the stubborn motivation necessary to pursue a goal, but quickly becomes bored and disinterested when he does not have a "battle" to fight.
Renly is charming and suave and has the confidence of youth. He is able to amass more followers than any other pursuant to the throne despite having the comparatively weakest claim and would have been a powerful political force when he grew into maturity.
Stannis is steadfast and rigid, willing to uphold the law first and foremost, even when it would hurt his political influence. He would make an excellent judge or arbiter, perhaps even a Hand or a traveling extension of the King's justice. However, he is a cold, bitter man with little interest in interpersonal relationships. He has a massive failing where politics is concerned, which would eventually erode his political support or allow a rival to gather influence during his reign.
Together they could each have worked to their strengths, with Renly promoting Robert's rule and garnering support and Stannis resolving disputes and enforcing justice. Robert as a figurehead becomes necessary during times of war and his brothers essentially mitigate his failings in times of peace.
[/COLOR]
Actually Stannis is much more flexible than people give him credit for. A lot of people refer to the quote about the Baratheon brothers, with Renly being copper, Stannis being iron, and Robert being the true steel, but he's changed his mind and indeed has gone against the strict word of law several times in the story. The first and foremost example of this is when he rebelled against Aerys, his rightful king, in order to support his brother. Here's a link that examines this in more detail and explains it far better than I actually can. http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/24p0qt/spoilers_all_donal_noyes_stannis_metaphor/ch996a3
The show shows him as basically being Melisandre's puppet, but in the books he actually speaks against her and is basically only using her because she shows examples of real power which can help him win the throne. It's pretty debatable as to whether he actually believes in R'hllor, there's a reason the most fervent followers of R'hllorism in his army are called Queen's Men.
And the story would have been so, so different had Renly supported Stannis' rightful claim to the throne and combined their strength. The Lannisters would have been destroyed at the Blackwater, with the lords of the Reach, the Stormlands, and (some of) the Crownlands attacking King's Landing all at once. The Battle of the Blackwater was already a pretty close deal, had Tywin and Mace not shown up when they did, King's Landing would have fallen even with Tyrion's (admittedly excellent) trap with the wildfire.
Edit: Danaerys did a pretty decent job in Meereen of establishing and maintaining peace, at a great personal cost but
ADWD
.The thing I like about ASOIAF is that there is no clear protagonist, there's no clear good or evil. There are only humans trying to do the best for themselves. Tyrion was a pretty decent player when he was the Hand, but
ADWD
so I'm not sure if current Tyrion would be any good. We'll see what happens next book when he (presumably)
Spoiler
A Song of Ice and Mafia - VerrKol - 2014-09-05
MasPan Wrote:[COLOR="#cc8899"]
Daenerys is also a kid who is growing rapidly into maturity alongside her dragons. She's learning pretty quickly to have influence that isn't directly tied in to them, but they're also basically a part of herself. I think Robert was steel, btw. For some reason I was thinking Renley was bronze.[/COLOR]
Yea bronze works just as well. Steel seems correct. There's something about him having to get polished in battle or he rusts.
She's definitely coming of age, but we'll just have to wait and see how she turns out I guess.
A Song of Ice and Mafia - y0y0y0y0shi0 - 2014-09-05
Oh yeah, no, Stannis is great. But I don't like that, so pineapple stannis. I need characters that are terrible.
And cranky old women are the best.
A Song of Ice and Mafia - Holypie - 2014-09-05
y0y0y0y0shi0 Wrote:Oh yeah, no, Stannis is great. But I don't like that, so pineapple stannis. I need characters that are terrible.
And cranky old women are the best.
Olenna is pretty freaking awesome, besides her nickname just screams badassery. I mean Queen of Thorns? Holy pomegranate.
I think Bloodraven is pretty badass too, based on the D&E novellas (as you can tell by my avatar). I'm pretty pissed off with how the show portrayed him. I mean he even said "A thousand eyes, and one" while obviously having two eyes. What the hell? That makes no sense at all!
A Song of Ice and Mafia - Holypie - 2014-09-05
Back to logistics, I'm going to extend the day by an hour, having it end at 12 EST because I'm probably not going to be able to close the day on time. Sorry about all this, this week has been really busy for me, it should be better next week.
A Song of Ice and Mafia - ChaoticCJ - 2014-09-05
I am going to be out for the rest of the day, so I won't be able to respond and doubt that I will be back in time to respond to any new information. I should be clear for the rest of the game, but something came up at the last minute.
A Song of Ice and Mafia - LuvDWayULie - 2014-09-06
Okay, that was scary.
A Song of Ice and Mafia - VerrKol - 2014-09-06
[MENTION=814]MasPan[/MENTION]; Told you Mance was godfather
A Song of Ice and Mafia - MasPan - 2014-09-06
VerrKol Wrote:MasPan; Told you Mance was godfather
This is not the kindof comment that should be in this thread