xparasite9 Wrote:peach, we don't even really understand gravity.

KhainiWest Wrote:That's like saying we don't understand anything about water but we still know that boiling water freezes faster than cold water.

Lozmaster Wrote:No, we really don't know much about gravity.

And the only reason we don't have an explanation for the Mpemba effect is because no-one gives enough pomegranates about it to find out, vs gravity where being the person to find some serious proof of antigravity/gravitons/antigravitons are all but guaranteed a nobel prize in physics.

Lozmaster Wrote:No, we really don't know much about gravity.

And the only reason we don't have an explanation for the Mpemba effect is because no-one gives enough shits about it to find out, vs gravity where being the person to find some serious proof of antigravity/gravitons/antigravitons are all but guaranteed a nobel prize in physics.

KhainiWest Wrote:But we don't know that much about water, but there are results we understand regarding it

Jazeon Wrote:Christian (hence creationist) and Microbiologist here. At most the only thing a debate like this will encourage is more thought on the matter and solidifying whatever views are currently held if you are are indeed an intellectual. If not, as others have said, it will cause the people who are unsure and looking for answers a biased view based on whoever is deemed the "victor" in their eyes. Don't get me wrong i'm all for debates but most people who go into debates already have their mind set on one side or another.

As for the whole "how can you practice science and hold to it's values while still believing in creation"....pretty easily to be honest. Any true scientist knows there is a whole lot we have yet to understand, a dishonest scientist will try to tell you "we have the answers based on our evidence and without a doubt, this is how it is fullstop". That being said anyone who understands science and the scientific method at it's core, knows it's finding an observable correlation between action and reaction and then saying so far this holds true and has yet to be disproven or fail, and in most fields we all know there are almost always anomalies in a theory. But that is the part that people who hold science as the end-all should really think about the "observable" part. As scientist we can only base what we know on what can be observed in some form or fashion. Given the vastness of the universe(scientifically proven lol) and regular every occurrences that are unexplainable (though in error can be attributed to theory that seems to fit) can you really say that the we as humans with our limited scope of senses and equipment, that we can say we have all the answers. For me personally no, I simply view science and as means to explain the observable, but given all the advances throughout history, and how often once again throughout history alot of what we once thought was impossible is now possible, it would be silly for me to sit back and say pfft that's impossible.

Touching on my views on creation and science converging, I would say God set up the machine called life, down to DNA, base pairs, RNA strands you name it and set it on it's way, and from that we have micro-evolution, (still not finding the evidence to support full on we came from apes thing, too many plausible solutions) degeneration, mutations etc. To me it's simple, definitely not trying to change anyone's opinion or get into a huge debate, been there done that on multiple forums over the years, just dropping my two cents on the matter.
Forgive any errors i'm at work.

Moonlapse Wrote:Three points I'd like to address:

1. Creationist != Christian. There are plenty of Christians in science that believe in evolution.

2. micro and macro evolution exist on a continuum. It's not like one is completely different from the other. The "we descended from apes" part is not completley accurate. We diverged from apes. Evidence from psuedogenes, phylogenetics, etc pretty much confirms this.

3. From a professional perspective, unless you can muster up some physical explanation or mechanism, speculating on "how God did it" is pointless. You are not going to get any papers published on it nor are you going to get any grant money.


(Sorry if I sound like a jerk, I'm just passionate about this subject)

Jazeon Wrote:But I would like to ask something regarding your 1st point, regardless of what any christian you may have come across may have stated, to believe that we came from apes goes against the very first chapters of the christian Bible. Man made from dust. There was no animal (ape or ape-like), then a successive change over time to then become human according. It was dust then man according to the bible. So I must ask in what capacity do you mean when you say "Christians in science that believe in evolution"? Because i myself believe in natural selection, which is not the same as evolution, key part of it yes but believing and accepting natural selection is not the same as saying I believe in evolution and all it's facets.

KhainiWest Wrote:...How do you have a legitimate degree in biology and believe in natural selection but not evolution? What do you think is the driving force in evolution? lmfao

KhainiWest Wrote:There were a few things else I wanted to point out but frankly it's not worth the time. Although I will digress, if you believe in a personal deity, as Christianity suggests, it comes off very arrogant to me that you feel the creator cares about not even a spec of dust in the universe. Frankly it be like bacteria worshiping us, and how much bacteria are you aware are just on your eyelashes?

xparasite9 Wrote:evolution isn't the same as evolutionism

KhainiWest Wrote:Clarify this so I know what direction you're going with this petty semantics game.

xparasite9 Wrote:Evolution is a natural process, but it's not the only way something can be brought about.

wow that didn't come close to what I was wanting to say.

KhainiWest Wrote:He was stating that natural selection is separate from evolution, but what I was getting at is natural selection is a huge cause for evolution which is the effect so to believe one over the other is contradictory. As for the "source" of all things, I can let agree to disagree because obviously we don't have an answer for that yet. However this is what I was getting at for people in general who believe in a personal god, should start at 40 seconds, if it doesn't just fast forward;

xparasite9 Wrote:[video=youtube;x3sPsbv3fnY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3sPsbv3fnY&t=2m16s[/video]
Now you look at the same video and pay attention to 2:16.

KhainiWest Wrote:The context of the video is that you shouldn't think of yourself outside of the universe, as in, have a personal god looking over you. So can I assume you missed the point..?

Niel DeGrasse Tyson Wrote:I know I'm small, but I'm also big. I'm big because I'm connected to the universe; and the universe is connected to me.

khainwest Wrote:In my opinion if there is a god, he's more of a curator, not a creator.

xparasite9 Wrote:No, but you should know that you didn't demonstrate your point at all.
Look check this out it's gonna blow your mind okay. Substitute "universe" with "god".

khainiwest Wrote:However this is what I was getting at for people in general who believe in a personal god