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+---- Thread: Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) (/showthread.php?tid=48863)
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - JoeTang - 2011-11-27
shouri Wrote:-snip-
Doing some digging, I found Tank Mode's delay to probably be 600ms affectable by booster? Otherwise, it's a 300ms delay identically to Siege Mode. How many targets can Tank Mode hit? I believe it has a pre delay of 840ms and after delay of 660ms, which is quite slow if you're switching into Siege Mode or buffing. Since both Siege Mode and Mech Siege Mode have pre and after delays, I've already shown that just pure Siege Mode is better than opting for Mech Siege Mode. I have no idea how the skills actually work though, if you can't activate it. I would presume if it's some passive in Chaos or something, it's been changed to an alternative active attack in Union.
Shouldn't Tank Mode's critical be 35%? 5% base + 10% 2nd job Mastery + 20% Tank Mode? And the 20% Critical Hit Rate only applies to Tank Mode's basic attack? If so, I'll have to do some adjustments around that. Your calculation method is accurate for pure spamming of one attack. My model wouldn't prove anything different if I did the same with those stats, but I can account for everything else, namely summon damage, buff timing, and attack switching.
Adjusting critical:
| Defense: | 0% | 10% | 25% | 40% | 70% |
| 1 Target: | 4816%/s | 4546%/s | 4136%/s | 3695%/s | 2870%/s |
| 2 Target: | 5413%/s | 5075%/s | 4616%/s | 4159%/s | 3192%/s |
| 3 Target: | 7544%/s | 7064%/s | 6328%/s | 5600%/s | 4193%/s |
| 4 Target: | 9673%/s | 9039%/s | 8039%/s | 7085%/s | 5183%/s |
| 5 Target: | 11713%/s | 10946%/s | 9735%/s | 8554%/s | 6195%/s |
| 6 Target: | 13838%/s | 12896%/s | 11539%/s | 10012%/s | 7195%/s |
Also, after watching a few videos of Corsairs, it appears that both Octopus and Crew attack at pretty fast speeds, and you appear to only be able to summon one Octopus. Appears to be faster than basic attacks, but I won't be able to determine what the exact speed is so until we find out, I won't be able to make an accurate assessment, but I can estimate.
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - shouri - 2011-11-27
Quick answers: I forgot about that 2nd job crit boost & tank mode is single target.
Yeah I forgot about the 2nd job crit boost. tank mode has a built in 20% crit boost that only affects the basic attacks while in tank mode.
-Tank mode is single target and fires in bursts of 6. Sadly this means that there's almost always wasted hits when in mobs, unlike hurricane... not that you'd use the basic attack while in mobs since laser just blows it out of the water
Found this post by devil in the [union] resistance skill tables thread:
Quote:4th Job Tank:
- Chaos (Crit Ring) -> 500(450)ms -> 673.5% = 1497%/s
- Union (Crit Ring) -> 500(450)ms -> 808.2% = 1796%/s
So it seems I was actually right about the 450ms delay? :O
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - Devil - 2011-11-28
Joe, Mechanic Siege is the same speed (if not faster) as 1st Job Flame Thrower (270ms base, from Fiel's extractions), and is affected both by booster and speed infusion.
With booster Flame Thrower should be 240ms, since it's (a tiny bit) faster then without booster (270ms), so the only option would be 240ms, since it's clearly not 210ms.
And in my repeated audio graph analysis of Siege Mode, I can count 20 times the Siege Mode sound graph amp.
5seconds / 20 = 250ms, so 240ms is my best estimate I can come up with.
Also, Mech summons are not affected by AMP Bot, but are affected by Robot Mastery (x 1.5 damage/duration) and all summons 100% ignore PDR/WDEF. And Satellites are buffed twice (Robot Mastery x 1.5 + Satellite Safety x 1.5).
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - JoeTang - 2011-11-28
So you get fewer shots in 5 seconds without booster? There's four delays associated with Siege mode. pre (720ms), siege (180ms), stand(300ms), and after(720ms). It appears that the cooldown starts after the pre delay. There would appear to be an advantage in that Siege 2 has shorter pre and after delays than 3rd job Siege.
But it's also possible to shoot just 3 shots with one attack in Siege Mode is it not?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps4xICmwt0Q
Using 240ms Siege
| Defense: | 0% | 10% | 25% | 40% | 70% |
| 1 Target: | 5685%/s | 5377%/s | 4806%/s | 4291%/s | 3249%/s |
| 2 Target: | 5410%/s | 5124%/s | 4621%/s | 4146%/s | 3195%/s |
| 3 Target: | 7497%/s | 7037%/s | 6336%/s | 5603%/s | 4197%/s |
| 4 Target: | 9624%/s | 8976%/s | 8040%/s | 7087%/s | 5197%/s |
| 5 Target: | 11708%/s | 10977%/s | 9737%/s | 8557%/s | 6206%/s |
| 6 Target: | 13851%/s | 12874%/s | 11489%/s | 10055%/s | 7198%/s |
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - shouri - 2011-11-28
Quote:But it's also possible to shoot just 3 shots with one attack in Siege Mode is it not?1 press = 6 shots, same with tank basic attack.
The delay should be the delay from the next burst of 6, no?
I remember counting 19/20 bursts of 6 for my siege mode.
Edit: just watched the video, yes it's 20 bursts of 6 in 5 seconds.
This places the delay at 250 ms, for the sake of calculators.
1000/250 * 6 * 100*1.3=3120%/sec with just tank mode siege mode.
3744 if you count in amplifier's 20% boost.
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - Devil - 2011-11-28
shouri Wrote:1 press = 6 shots, same with tank basic attack.The delay can't be 250ms, since that can't be divided by 30ms, 240ms or 270ms are the only options, but 270ms wouldn't make 20 shots in 5 seconds (5400ms), while 240ms would make it in that time period with 20 shots (4800ms).
The delay should be the delay from the next burst of 6, no?
I remember counting 19/20 bursts of 6 for my siege mode.
Edit: just watched the video, yes it's 20 bursts of 6 in 5 seconds.
This places the delay at 250 ms, for the sake of calculators.
1000/250 * 6 * 100*1.3=3120%/sec with just tank mode siege mode.
3744 if you count in amplifier's 20% boost.
And since Nexon is a fan of copy/paste, and Flame Thrower from 1st job is 270ms (240ms with booster), I keep referring to 240ms Siege (240ms with booster, and 270ms without).
Checked again in slo-mo from my own FRAPS video's, Siege = 20 times 6 shots
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - JoeTang - 2011-11-28
Devil Wrote:The delay can't be 250ms, since that can't be divided by 30ms, 240ms or 270ms are the only options, but 270ms wouldn't make 20 shots in 5 seconds (5400ms), while 240ms would make it in that time period with 20 shots (4800ms).
And since Nexon is a fan of copy/paste, and Flame Thrower from 1st job is 270ms (240ms with booster), I keep referring to 240ms Siege (240ms with booster, and 270ms without).
You can't booster Flame Thrower.
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - Devil - 2011-11-28
JoeTang Wrote:You can't booster Flame Thrower.Hmmm are you sure? That's odd, because Flame Thrower feels slower without booster on... o.0
Anyway, back to Siege, without booster, I get 19 shots more often then 20. But sometimes it's 20 also, it's the same as Snipe used to be for Marksmen, the "time" and "cooldown" are not 100% perfect 5secs and 15secs.
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - shouri - 2011-11-28
Devil Wrote:The delay can't be 250ms, since that can't be divided by 30ms, 240ms or 270ms are the only options, but 270ms wouldn't make 20 shots in 5 seconds (5400ms), while 240ms would make it in that time period with 20 shots (4800ms).
And since Nexon is a fan of copy/paste, and Flame Thrower from 1st job is 270ms (240ms with booster), I keep referring to 240ms Siege (240ms with booster, and 270ms without).
Checked again in slo-mo from my own FRAPS video's, Siege = 20 times 6 shots
Hmm, my only concern would've involved the cooldown in tank mode, which I guess doesn't matter now xD
Mainly:
if we use 240, then in the calculation we'd use
1000/240= 4.167 This would skew the damage to be a bit higher than it should be.... since this implies that over the course of 5 seconds you get 20.83 shots in, which just doesn't happen. By using 250 (JUST for the sake of calculations) we wouldn't have to worry about that.
However, since the cooldown is gone, this'd be a moot point. the extra decimal would actually kick in after every 6 seconds of shooting. So it'd be proper to use 240 now.
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - Devil - 2011-11-29
JoeTang Wrote:So you get fewer shots in 5 seconds without booster? There's four delays associated with Siege mode. pre (720ms), siege (180ms), stand(300ms), and after(720ms). It appears that the cooldown starts after the pre delay. There would appear to be an advantage in that Siege 2 has shorter pre and after delays than 3rd job Siege.Hmmm I just thought of something, booster might also shorten the Mech transforms, this might be the reason that you get mostly 19 shots without and 20 with booster, if the "time" period starts right at the moment the button for siege is pressed. You have more time for shooting Siege "Bullets" if the transform delay gets shortened by booster.
Quote:But it's also possible to shoot just 3 shots with one attack in Siege Mode is it not?Each Siege shot is 6 drawn bullets in visual pairs of 3 + 3, you can't shoot 3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps4xICmwt0Q
Quote:Using 240ms SiegeJoe, is this Siege alone, or is this including the summons? (Satellite with 2 buffs + Bots 'n Tots with buff + Rock 'n Shock with buff)
Defense: 0% 10% 25% 40% 70% 1 Target: 5685%/s 5377%/s 4806%/s 4291%/s 3249%/s 2 Target: 5410%/s 5124%/s 4621%/s 4146%/s 3195%/s 3 Target: 7497%/s 7037%/s 6336%/s 5603%/s 4197%/s 4 Target: 9624%/s 8976%/s 8040%/s 7087%/s 5197%/s 5 Target: 11708%/s 10977%/s 9737%/s 8557%/s 6206%/s 6 Target: 13851%/s 12874%/s 11489%/s 10055%/s 7198%/s
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - JoeTang - 2011-11-29
Devil Wrote:Hmmm I just thought of something, booster might also shorten the Mech transforms, this might be the reason that you get mostly 19 shots without and 20 with booster, if the "time" period starts right at the moment the button for siege is pressed. You have more time for shooting Siege "Bullets" if the transform delay gets shortened by booster.From the videos I've seen, it appears that cooldowns start after the initial delay of transforming into Siege mode. I'll need to check if this applies to other skills, but the difference is substantially minimal, except for the case of pre-Union Siege. Can't think of any other case where it would matter because the same amount of time passes between reusing cooldown skills anyways.
Devil Wrote:Each Siege shot is 6 drawn bullets in visual pairs of 3 + 3, you can't shoot 3.Yeah, I realised that after thinking about it some more.
Devil Wrote:Joe, is this Siege alone, or is this including the summons? (Satellite with 2 buffs + Bots 'n Tots with buff + Rock 'n Shock with buff)
This is with buffed summons and buff recasting.
Adjusted for Acceleration Bot's defense ignore debuff I just learned about. Continuing with 240ms.
| Defense: | 0% | 10% | 25% | 40% | 70% |
| 1 Target: | 5604%/s | 5343%/s | 4952%/s | 4495%/s | 3666%/s |
| 2 Target: | 5735%/s | 5480%/s | 5092%/s | 4710%/s | 3941%/s |
| 3 Target: | 8169%/s | 7799%/s | 7200%/s | 6639%/s | 5498%/s |
| 4 Target: | 10591%/s | 10101%/s | 9303%/s | 8552%/s | 7030%/s |
| 5 Target: | 13037%/s | 12406%/s | 11450%/s | 10484%/s | 8598%/s |
| 6 Target: | 15486%/s | 14755%/s | 13541%/s | 12412%/s | 10132%/s |
Super ideal situation where self destructs hit six monsters, etc. How many enemies can Bots 'n Tots hit? I have them hitting up to six here. Whenever Tespia comes back, I'll be sure to try to test all the Mechanic stuff.
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - Devil - 2011-11-29
JoeTang Wrote:How many enemies can Bots 'n Tots hit? I have them hitting up to six here. Whenever Tespia comes back, I'll be sure to try to test all the Mechanic stuff.AFAIK, the number of monster it can it is unlimited, but it's at least 8 (from my LHC adventures), but I wouldn't be surprised if it was capped at 15, like all ultimates have. Same goes for Rock 'n Shock, that one is also at least 8, and most likely 15.
Also, for Union, don't forget Laser will hit 8 targets (2 more then now).
P.S. For the summons, did you also increase their summon time (x 1.5), because it allows Bots 'n Tots to be re-summoned right after it explodes when it's at max level.
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - JoeTang - 2011-11-29
Yes, I did.
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - modular - 2011-11-30
ooh mechs
1) accelbot doesnt work against boss tags (sadface)
2) laser was lowered to 1110 ms delay in union (!!!!!) from 1470
3) confirming 270 ms shot delay in siege mode, 450 ms delay on normal attack // booster'd. siege is always 20 shots if you hold down the key the whole 5sec duration, allowing for lag (which could turn it to 19...). booster doesnt affect siege.
4) the siege mode 2 hidden skill should be mostly ignored, it just has different animation data linked to it for tank mode as far as i can tell... the 100->120% buff from ^thread applies to normal attacks, the 95->115% applies to siege shots. in tank mode a siege shot will be uh.. either 145% or 115*1.3 whatever maple likes versus 115% in prototype siege. then tack on crit damage multipliers.
5) BnT hits 6, RnS hits 10. dunno about in union. summons are not affected by ampbot. their damage is based off attack range, boss30 and total damage dont help. (OH but they ARE affected by rolling 5)
i havent really watched any videos of mechs training/bossing from union, i dont know whats changed wrt how siege works, only that its supposed to be a toggle now or something.
what other mech questions do we have, might be able to answer?
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - JoeTang - 2011-11-30
K, thanks, adjusted.
Weapon Speed: Faster (3)
Weapon Speed: Fastest (2)
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - shouri - 2011-11-30
modular Wrote:4) the siege mode 2 hidden skill should be mostly ignored, it just has different animation data linked to it for tank mode as far as i can tell... the 100->120% buff from ^thread applies to normal attacks, the 95->115% applies to siege shots. in tank mode a siege shot will be uh.. either 145% or 115*1.3 whatever maple likes versus 115% in prototype siege. then tack on crit damage multipliers.
Except that in the union skill tables it still says siege mode 1 is 100% and siege mode 2 was never 95%... so it can't have been bumped up to 115%... it always was 115%.... not that it matters since it's not used.
Earlier on, I showed that siege mode 2's damage % isn't applied anywhere. Neither my prototype siege, nor my tank mode siege (x1.3 dmg taken into account) match data on siege mode 2's theoretical average nor max.
Hence proto siege mode is still 100% and tank siege mode is 100%*1.3.
I've verified in GMS at least that siege mode 2's 115% matches NONE of my damage outputs.
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - Devil - 2011-11-30
Ok, I did one last attempt to determine Siege speed:
60 fps video of Siege Tank (4th job)
Each frame is 16.6666ms (1000/60)
1st shot - 12 frames - 200ms
2nd shot - 13 frames - 217ms
3rd shot - 12 frames - 200ms
4th shot - 12 frames - 200ms
5th shot - 14 frames - 233ms
6th shot - 12 frames - 200ms
7th shot - 13 frames - 217ms
8th shot - 12 frames - 200ms
9th shot - 11 frames - 183ms
10th shot - 11 frames - 183ms
11th shot - 14 frames - 233ms
12th shot - 13 frames - 217ms
13th shot - 12 frames - 200ms
14th shot - 12 frames - 200ms
15th shot - 14 frames - 233ms
16th shot - 13 frames - 217ms
17th shot - 11 frames - 183ms
18th shot - 13 frames - 217ms
19th shot - 9 frames - 150ms
20th shot - 16 frames - 267ms
Total siege bullet frames: 249 frames - 4150ms / 20 = 207.5ms avg
So it's confirmed that it's definitely not 270ms, maybe 230ms, but from what I can say now is 210ms comes closest to the average.
But yeah, it's 20 shots in the current 5 seconds "time" of Siege.
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - modular - 2011-11-30
shouri Wrote:Except that in the union skill tables it still says siege mode 1 is 100% and siege mode 2 was never 95%... so it can't have been bumped up to 115%... it always was 115%.... not that it matters since it's not used.
siege 2 got nerfed from 100->95% in chaos, bumped up to 115 in union
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - JoeTang - 2011-11-30
New Corsair tables with estimated 810ms for one Octopus Quarterdeck and Assemble Crew. Looks like it might be a bit faster, but they are at least this fast. I'll need to review the way summons attack in my models to be a bit more accurate, and double check what buffs work for them. Right now, I have everything working for these summons, stacking multiplicatively, though some may in actuality be additive (i.e Assemble Crew Bonus + Dice 5), and may not even work.
Corsair:
Weapon Speed: Faster (3)
Weapon Speed: Fastest (2)
Pirate %/s (KMS RED and GMS Unleashed) - shouri - 2011-11-30
@mod: I quite apparently missed out on that initial nerf D: whoops
@joe: Hey lookie that... those are some nice %s.