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Mandatory Vaccinations - Anonymous Moose - 2011-02-02
Eosian Wrote:Wouldn't that be the clinical trials submitted to the FDA to get approval for the vaccines and proving the vaccines actually do what they're advertised to do?
I'll look into that, and come back after I see what I can find. A bit too much of my research has mostly been directed at the CDC and I have neglected the FDA. If you have any specific links, that would be appreciated.
Also,Kabanwa, the HIV vaccination experiments have not concluded yet. They havent even started and as a result prove nothing at this time. Please try again with a real completed study.
Mandatory Vaccinations - Shidoshi - 2011-02-02
Eosian Wrote:They're doing it right now with the HIV vaccines.
http://www.hopetakesaction.org/volunteering/index.html
In fact they've always done vaccine studies with placebos because it's the only way to tell if you're having any statistical effect over doing nothing at all.
What I mean is for diseases which already have a proven way to be treated, you can't have a group that recieves no treatment. You can only compare your treatment to the one that's scientifically accepted currently.
Mandatory Vaccinations - kanevaldier - 2011-02-02
After having read through every post here, I have come to one conclution. The fact is that there is no "real" proof that vaccines infact do work as they are said to. Anyone who blindly believes what the government says might as well just get in touch with me to by my ocean front property that I own in arizona...lol. The government lies to its population an a daily basis to cover up things they dont want you to know about. The FDA for example says that aspertame is ok to use in food products. However, aspertame is a poison. So basically they are telling us its ok for companies to put poison in our food, water and drugs. That is just one of many poisons that the FDA has approved for use. Big business and the government dont care about the people, they only care about the money and the power. That is why I always question the government on everything they say.
People all have different body chemestries and what is good for one person will kill the next. We are all individual and have our own little quarks that make us that way. The only thing I can do is to do what I feel is right and not let the government tell me what they think I should feel is right. The USA was founded on a few basic principles and one of those was the right to choose. Since it is up to a parent to guide and nurture their children, that makes it their obligation to make choices for them until they are at such a point in life that they can do so on their own. Thats what parenting is all about. It is not up to the government to tell me how to do that.
The more freedoms that people allow the government to take from us the worse things will get. Dont believe me? Wait and see...dont take a stand and just watch what happens. When the time comes you look back and say, "I wish I had done something to stop this".
Mandatory Vaccinations - Holypie - 2011-02-02
So by your logic if the world has complete anarchy, everything will be better? Because anarchy is what happens when people have all the freedom that is possible to have.
Mandatory Vaccinations - Kalovale - 2011-02-02
Anonymous Moose Wrote:And if a disease is in decline, which is the case for many diseases supposedly eradicated by vaccines, then that brings doubt to the official claim that vaccines killed the diseases.
And instead suggest that the diseases disappeared into thin air all by themselves?
From all I can see, you're simply repeating the few arguments that anti-vaccinationists employ without even stopping to ask yourself, wait, does this make sense. There is an equilibrium in everything around which all things fluctuate; just because something starts a trend within a very limited period of time does not mean it will continue that trend, in fact, it's only natural for half diseases to start declining right before a certain point and the other half doing the exact opposite. But somehow you never hear about the other side of the story.
You want proof that vaccines work? How about the process of vaccines coming into use in the very first place? Isn't it only common sense that something has to be functional for it to remain existent over long periods of time?
And by the way, that article:
1/ "Lends credence to Andrew Wakefield's famous studies in 1998."
2/ Does exactly just the shouting. They inject vaccines into primates, observe them developing abnormal behavioral changes, come up with a conclusion that the "bad" things in the vaccine are responsible. Wow. Even if their experiment were sound, it still wouldn't sound any less idiotic when put like that.
Premise 1: Vaccine A contains harmful substance X
Premise 2: Vaccine A proves harmful
Conclusion: Substance X is responsible for said harm
For real? Shouldn't they at the very least be attaching something like this but with opposite results? In fact, wasn't Mercury-based thimerosal preservative removed from all vaccines in 2001 (for whatever reason, even yours) and autism rate still went up regardless? What's more, CDC claims that thimerosal has never been used in MMR, and I don't think the government would be making such an easily disprovable claim, but I don't know about you.
kanevaldier Wrote:However, aspertame is a poison.It's much the same way fish is okay to eat, isn't it? At least, that's the government's take on legalizing it. They don't "just allow it", they allow it with a reason. They don't tell you it's okay, go ahead and eat it all you want, but rather that it's allowable in certain limited amounts and situations. Like you said, a man's meat is poison to another, know your own body and steer clear of food you can't eat. It's common sense, Mute can't eat shellfish and he knows it.
Mandatory Vaccinations - kanevaldier - 2011-02-02
Holypie Wrote:So by your logic if the world has complete anarchy, everything will be better? Because anarchy is what happens when people have all the freedom that is possible to have.
No. Anarchy is the absense of law. It is every citizens responsibility to stand up for what they believe in as long as it falls within the law. Unfortunately, fear of what the government will do to you has limited that. Right now its happening. The people believe that no matter what they do, the government is going to do what they want so there is no point in fighting it. That is absolutely unacceptable. I am not saying that we have to break the law to fix things but ignoring them will only make matters worse. Big business breaks the law all the time and at worst case they just get a slap on the wrist. When I talk about big business, I am talking about businesses like AIG, Goldman Saks, JP Morgan/Chase, ect. All of whom have big ties to the government and they are the ones who are making policy and getting laws changed to suit themselves while the little guy get kicked around. I am simply trying to inform those who are blind to the happenings because they believe what they are told by the government.
Mandatory Vaccinations - Stereo - 2011-02-02
kanevaldier Wrote:After having read through every post here, I have come to one conclution. The fact is that there is no "real" proof that vaccines infact do work as they are said to.
Vaccines are well understood. There's no question of whether they work - time and time again, evidence has shown that vaccines are effective in preventing disease.
You have to travel as far as Wikipedia to find overwhelming amounts of evidence - for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine - numbers that demonstrate the power of the vaccine. (and if you read long enough, you'll find some more fun evidence that people have died because of the autism scare, which is truly frightening - luckily for Wakefield, as a scientist he's not responsible for deaths caused by his fraud or he'd be in jail)
Mandatory Vaccinations - Kabanaw - 2011-02-02
kanevaldier Wrote:No. Anarchy is the absense of law. It is every citizens responsibility to stand up for what they believe in as long as it falls within the law. Unfortunately, fear of what the government will do to you has limited that. Right now its happening. The people believe that no matter what they do, the government is going to do what they want so there is no point in fighting it. That is absolutely unacceptable. I am not saying that we have to break the law to fix things but ignoring them will only make matters worse. Big business breaks the law all the time and at worst case they just get a slap on the wrist. When I talk about big business, I am talking about businesses like AIG, Goldman Saks, JP Morgan/Chase, ect. All of whom have big ties to the government and they are the ones who are making policy and getting laws changed to suit themselves while the little guy get kicked around. I am simply trying to inform those who are blind to the happenings because they believe what they are told by the government.
Anarchy literally translate from greek as "without ruler." Do you really want the millions and millions of people in this country to make their own decisions about what is right? Who will you have upholding the law? Will everybody be responsible to punish each other? Then why can't people lie about what somebody else did to them, and punish them accordingly? Who would make the laws for what is right or wrong?
I don't think anybody in this country believes that the government is so powerful that nothing they do will change it. Maybe a good amount of people do nothing, but that's not because they feel an overwhelming force of power crushing them, it's simply because they don't care.
Mandatory Vaccinations - kanevaldier - 2011-02-02
Stereo Wrote:Vaccines are well understood. There's no question of whether they work - time and time again, evidence has shown that vaccines are effective in preventing disease.
You have to travel as far as Wikipedia to find overwhelming amounts of evidence - for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine - numbers that demonstrate the power of the vaccine. (and if you read long enough, you'll find some more fun evidence that people have died because of the autism scare, which is truly frightening
The same can be said for the opposite side of the argument. The fact is that studies, polls, ect. can be manipulated to produce what ever results are desired. If you look long and hard enough you can find just about anything on the internet to support your claims, but that can be said for both sides.
Mandatory Vaccinations - kanevaldier - 2011-02-02
Kabanaw Wrote:Anarchy literally translate from greek as "without ruler." Do you really want the millions and millions of people in this country to make their own decisions about what is right? Who will you have upholding the law? Will everybody be responsible to punish each other? Then why can't people lie about what somebody else did to them, and punish them accordingly? Who would make the laws for what is right or wrong?
I don't think anybody in this country believes that the government is so powerful that nothing they do will change it. Maybe a good amount of people do nothing, but that's not because they feel an overwhelming force of power crushing them, it's simply because they don't care.
I never said anything about not have a ruler. The problem is big business being involved with the government. Once money gets involved, its easy to be currupted. This however is way off topic.
Bottom line is that vaccines should be a matter of choice not manditory. That is a right given to us by the constitution.
Mandatory Vaccinations - TaliaNCo - 2011-02-02
So how are those who are not vaccinated causing harm to the ones who are vaccinated? If you're vaccinated, I guess you have nothing to worry about.
Mandatory Vaccinations - Eos - 2011-02-02
TaliaNCo Wrote:So how are those who are not vaccinated causing harm to the ones who are vaccinated? If you're vaccinated, I guess you have nothing to worry about.
Vaccination boosts resistance, it doesn't confer immunity.
The more susceptible people present the less benefit having an increased resistance does you because the more direct contact/exposure your immune system has to deal with.
Mandatory Vaccinations - TaliaNCo - 2011-02-02
Eosian Wrote:Vaccination boosts resistance, it doesn't confer immunity.
The more susceptible people present the less benefit having an increased resistance does you because the more direct contact/exposure your immune system has to deal with.
I know that Eos. I was being a smart ass for a minute. I'm not totally against them, I'm against them until a certain age. All of my children are very, very healthy. I believe I've made the right choices for them. I just want to have the ability to choose.
Mandatory Vaccinations - kanevaldier - 2011-02-02
Eosian Wrote:Vaccination boosts resistance, it doesn't confer immunity.
The more susceptible people present the less benefit having an increased resistance does you because the more direct contact/exposure your immune system has to deal with.
Direct exposure is exactly how your immune system builds immunity. So the best way to reduce the problem is to not "fool" the immune system with a vaccine. Vaccines are dead forms of viruses/diseases. However, the immune system only builds a defense against a dead form. If exposed to the living form, the immune system may not be properly prepared for the way the virus/disease acts. Thus causing an infection anyway. Small pox is one example of such occurance, another can be the flu.
Mandatory Vaccinations - Kabanaw - 2011-02-02
kanevaldier Wrote:Direct exposure is exactly how your immune system builds immunity. So the best way to reduce the problem is to not "fool" the immune system with a vaccine. Vaccines are dead forms of viruses/diseases. However, the immune system only builds a defense against a dead form. If exposed to the living form, the immune system may not be properly prepared for the way the virus/disease acts. Thus causing an infection anyway. Small pox is one example of such occurance, another can be the flu.
Erm, do you know how the immune system works? The body creates anti-bodies for diseases, which connect to the invader and allow them to be caught by white blood cells. but each disease needs a different set of them and they can't make those until the body sees the invader. So even though the virus is dead in many vaccines and doesn't cause any harm, the body can make anti-bodies for the disease and can then fight it before it causes an actual problem. At least, this is my 9th grade bio understanding of it, I'm sure someone else could explain it much more in-depth.
Mandatory Vaccinations - TaliaNCo - 2011-02-02
I'm just a skeptic by nature. I question everything.
Mandatory Vaccinations - Moonlapse - 2011-02-02
kanevaldier Wrote:Direct exposure is exactly how your immune system builds immunity. So the best way to reduce the problem is to not "fool" the immune system with a vaccine. Vaccines are dead forms of viruses/diseases. However, the immune system only builds a defense against a dead form. If exposed to the living form, the immune system may not be properly prepared for the way the virus/disease acts. Thus causing an infection anyway. Small pox is one example of such occurance, another can be the flu.
Vaccines already are direct exposure. Take the MMR vaccine. It contains "live viruses" that have been chemically inactivated. To your body an antigen is an antigen. It will react the same way to it whether it is a vaccine or the real pathogen.
Mandatory Vaccinations - Eos - 2011-02-02
kanevaldier Wrote:Direct exposure is exactly how your immune system builds immunity. So the best way to reduce the problem is to not "fool" the immune system with a vaccine. Vaccines are dead forms of viruses/diseases. However, the immune system only builds a defense against a dead form. If exposed to the living form, the immune system may not be properly prepared for the way the virus/disease acts. Thus causing an infection anyway. Small pox is one example of such occurance, another can be the flu.
Antigens are antigens whether alive or dead. The macrophages bind to it just the same and prime the t-cells to become cytotoxic to similar agents in the future.The vaccine isn't fooling anything, it's triggering a selective immune response. The live/dead has nothing to do with it, the only time that comes into play is if the virus itself mutates in which case it's not the vaccines fault that it wasn't sufficient, it's the organisms for having changed.
Mandatory Vaccinations - kanevaldier - 2011-02-02
Eosian Wrote:The live/dead has nothing to do with it, the only time that comes into play is if the virus itself mutates in which case it's not the vaccines fault that it wasn't sufficient, it's the organisms for having changed.
Thats my point. We have to get flu vaccinations every year...if that is mutating every year then maybe the vaccines are causing the mutation. If you over expose then a mutation is bound to happen. Life, no matter the form, will find a way to continue to exist. How is it that our ancestors made it without vaccines?
Mandatory Vaccinations - Moonlapse - 2011-02-02
kanevaldier Wrote:We have to get flu vaccinations every year...if that is mutating every year then maybe the vaccines are causing the mutation. If you over expose then a mutation is bound to happen. Life, no matter the form, will find a way to continue to exist. How is it that our ancestors made it without vaccines?
The flu mutates every year because the virus particles co-infect livestock and genetically recombine.