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+--- Thread: Attack Speed Reference (/showthread.php?tid=3088)
Attack Speed Reference - Dusk - 2008-11-20
I think you should list two times. One using the skill specified, and one alternating with a different skill. That way you can determine how long it takes to execute the skill, as well as the "cooldown" on the skill.
Attack Speed Reference - LazyBui - 2008-11-20
Added all the skills that I know how to account for. Also, the 4th hit of Assassinate. Delay is stated only on skills where delay is not the same as spamming the skill.
See anything missing (or outright incorrect, I suppose)?
Attack Speed Reference - KaidaTan - 2008-11-20
LazyBui Wrote:See anything missing (or outright incorrect, I suppose)?
I don't see any of the Energy Skills for 3rd and 4th job Infighters.
Attack Speed Reference - LazyBui - 2008-11-20
LazyBui Wrote:Not quite sure how the 3rd job knuckle attacks work.Their descriptions make it sound like they're not spammable. If they are spammable, I've no clue how they work and they certainly don't work on unofficial servers, so.. caveat applies.
As an afterthought, if I can't figure out how those knuckle skills work, I won't be able to clock their speeds (although I suspect there's really no point if they aren't spammable; I don't know much about pirates). If they are spammable, then.. I guess I'll have to wait until I can get my hands on a character that I can use to figure it out.
Attack Speed Reference - Dusk - 2008-11-20
Well, that explains the strangeness of Double Upper. The cooldown on the skill is 1140 ms, but when you attack at Normal (6) speed, the attack takes longer than the cooldown itself, resulting in slow spammability.
Attack Speed Reference - Russt - 2008-11-21
Very nice. Just to clarify, spamming means how long until the same skill can be used again, and delay is how long until a different skill can be used, correct?
Attack Speed Reference - LazyBui - 2008-11-21
Yes.
EDIT: Just so this isn't an entirely wasted post, I find it interesting that Ice Splitter/Flamethrower do not require capsules at this time.
@below: o
Shows how much I know about pirates. Zilch.
Attack Speed Reference - Russt - 2008-11-21
They never do, but the damage they deal is halved without them.
Hmm... apparently Corkscrew, Backspin, and DU have different casting times when they actually hit a monster, similar to Rush. Could you look into this?
Attack Speed Reference - Dusk - 2008-12-03
Er, I hope for the sake of all the people that made Buccaneers in hopes that they would be really pineappleing strong that either the speed listed for Demolition is wrong, or I did my math wrong.
I'm unsatisfied with Devil's DPS comparison, so I started to make my own. This is how far I am about 90 minutes in.
Spoiler
![[Image: dpscl5.png]](http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/8615/dpscl5.png)
Edit: I realize I forgot quite a few things, like Expertise for archers giving +10 Att, but I can't seem to figure out how Buccaneers could possibly make that big of a jump up the charts without a massive error going on somewhere.
As you can see, Buccaneers are weaker than every other class even while super transformed if these numbers are correct. Even when I changed the attack value to 135 (I think they get a 20 attack bonus while ST'd) they were still barely more powerful than a STR shadower. Meanwhile, Corsairs outdamage the pomegranate out of every other class while in Battleship.
I'm currently working on including more attacks, such as Rapid Fire and Barrage. Eventually I hope to include everything Devil has in his thread.
This is the source of the numbers I used for the chart.
15/15/15/15 Zakum Helmet (clean)
14 att Stormcaster gloves
2 att, 5 dex Facestompers
22/22/22/22 Horntail Pendant
3 att, 10 (mainstat) Pink adventurer Cape
10 dex/luk earrings
Sword (1h) - 122 att, 7 str
Sword (2h) - 124 att, 7 str
Axe (1h) - 122 att, 7 str
Axe (2h) - 126 att, 7 str
Blunt (1h) - 122 att, 7 str
Blunt (2h) - 126 att, 7 str
Crossheider - 14 att, 12 str
Spear - 126 att, 7 str
Polearm - 126 att, 7 str
Bow - 119 att
Crossbow - 122 att
Claw - 68 att
Ilbis - +27 att
Luk Dagger - 117 att, 7 luk
Str Dagger - 119 att, 7 luk
Seclusion Wristguard - 14 att, 7 str, 1 luk
Dragon Khanjar - 29 att, 7 str, 2 luk
Knuckle - 96 att, 7 str
Gun - 96 att
Eternal bullets - +20 att
Blue/Black Neos/Lucida set - 23 str, 16 dex, 5 acc
Blue Arzuna/Armis - 4 str, 26 dex
Red Katinas/Katte - 3 dex, 27 luk
Red Duke (1) - 27 str, 3 dex
Red Duke (2) - 7 str, 23 dex
Base stats:
All Warriors - 999 str, 23 dex
Bowmaster - 84 str, 938 dex
Marksman - 79 str, 943 dex
Thief (sin/luk dit) - 4 str, 115 dex, 907 luk
Thief (str dit) - 38 str, 115 dex, 873 luk
Buccaneer - 942 str, 80 dex
Corsair - 76 str, 946 dex
Equipped stats + 20 MW:
2h Warriors - 19+weapon att, 1175 str, 93 dex
1h Warriors - 155 att, 1182 str, 93 dex
Bowmaster - 138 att, 113 str, 1119 dex
Marksman - 141 att, 107 str, 1125 dex
Night Lord - 114 att, 1081 luk
Shadower (luk) - 150 att, 48 str, 171 dex, 1089 luk
Shadower (str) - 166 att, 85 str, 171 dex, 1053 luk
Buccaneer - 115 att, 1117 str, 143 dex
Corsair - 135 att, 127 str, 1125 dex
Attack Speed Reference - Russt - 2008-12-03
Well... if it helps at all, I heard Demo can be spammed 33/minute, which is ~1.9 seconds.
As stated before, certain Brawler skills have different times depending whether they actually make contact or not, and I have a feeling that skills' speeds when they hit is a lot more relevant and interesting than when they don't.
Attack Speed Reference - Stereo - 2008-12-03
@Dusk the higher multiplier for 1h axe/BW is only 4.4, not 4.6. They do less damage.
Attack Speed Reference - JoeTang - 2008-12-03
None of the attack speeds consider Wind Booster, which may make a small difference to themselves, but as a collective against a boss, it will be slightly more significant.
Barrage is considerably worse than Demolition. Without Stun, Buccaneer damage is considerably crappier.
What I don't understand is how a Paladin's average base damage is higher than a Hero's with the same stats. That, and a Night Lord's mastery should be 0.50, not 0.56.
I recommend you lower the Buccaneer's base DEX, since he has 143. He could do with at least 33 less. Not that that's a huge difference.
Buccaneers gain a 30STR Bonus in maxed Super Transform, and a 20 Attack Bonus in maxed Energy Charge, which I believe stacks with other attack bonuses, such as Warrior Elixers. Sadly a large portion of their damage comes from Stun Mastery, which has no effect on bosses.
Attack Speed Reference - Russt - 2008-12-03
JoeTang Wrote:I recommend you lower the Buccaneer's base DEX, since he has 143. He could do with at least 33 less. Not that that's a huge difference.?
Dusk Wrote:Buccaneer - 942 str, 80 dex
I think you're looking at the total, not base. But yeah, he could still do with 33 less. 110 knuckle only requires 110 to equip, does it not?
Attack Speed Reference - Stereo - 2008-12-03
JoeTang Wrote:What I don't understand is how a Paladin's average base damage is higher than a Hero's with the same stats.
Or the fact that the 1h Blunt/Axe have the highest min damage of any weapon with the lowest multiplier (3.2)..
2h BW should be: min 3262 max 8312 avg 5696
1h BW should be: min 3310 max 8205 avg 5673
An identical base range for a Sword Paladin/Hero should lead to identical average damage. Same is not true for Axe/BW. But the BW would be higher. I can't tell where your average damages came from.
Attack Speed Reference - MasPan - 2008-12-03
Dusk Wrote:Er, I hope for the sake of all the people that made Buccaneers in hopes that they would be really pineappleing strong that either the speed listed for Demolition is wrong, or I did my math wrong.
I'm unsatisfied with Devil's DPS comparison, so I started to make my own. This is how far I am about 90 minutes in.
Spoiler
Edit: I realize I forgot quite a few things, like Expertise for archers giving +10 Att, but I can't seem to figure out how Buccaneers could possibly make that big of a jump up the charts without a massive error going on somewhere.
As you can see, Buccaneers are weaker than every other class even while super transformed if these numbers are correct. Even when I changed the attack value to 135 (I think they get a 20 attack bonus while ST'd) they were still barely more powerful than a STR shadower. Meanwhile, Corsairs outdamage the pomegranate out of every other class while in Battleship.
I'm currently working on including more attacks, such as Rapid Fire and Barrage. Eventually I hope to include everything Devil has in his thread.
This is the source of the numbers I used for the chart.
15/15/15/15 Zakum Helmet (clean)
14 att Stormcaster gloves
2 att, 5 dex Facestompers
22/22/22/22 Horntail Pendant
3 att, 10 (mainstat) Pink adventurer Cape
10 dex/luk earrings
Sword (1h) - 122 att, 7 str
Sword (2h) - 124 att, 7 str
Axe (1h) - 122 att, 7 str
Axe (2h) - 126 att, 7 str
Blunt (1h) - 122 att, 7 str
Blunt (2h) - 126 att, 7 str
Crossheider - 14 att, 12 str
Spear - 126 att, 7 str
Polearm - 126 att, 7 str
Bow - 119 att
Crossbow - 122 att
Claw - 68 att
Ilbis - +27 att
Luk Dagger - 117 att, 7 luk
Str Dagger - 119 att, 7 luk
Seclusion Wristguard - 14 att, 7 str, 1 luk
Dragon Khanjar - 29 att, 7 str, 2 luk
Knuckle - 96 att, 7 str
Gun - 96 att
Eternal bullets - +20 att
Blue/Black Neos/Lucida set - 23 str, 16 dex, 5 acc
Blue Arzuna/Armis - 4 str, 26 dex
Red Katinas/Katte - 3 dex, 27 luk
Red Duke (1) - 27 str, 3 dex
Red Duke (2) - 7 str, 23 dex
Base stats:
All Warriors - 999 str, 23 dex
Bowmaster - 84 str, 938 dex
Marksman - 79 str, 943 dex
Thief (sin/luk dit) - 4 str, 115 dex, 907 luk
Thief (str dit) - 38 str, 115 dex, 873 luk
Buccaneer - 942 str, 80 dex
Corsair - 76 str, 946 dex
Equipped stats + 20 MW:
2h Warriors - 19+weapon att, 1175 str, 93 dex
1h Warriors - 155 att, 1182 str, 93 dex
Bowmaster - 138 att, 113 str, 1119 dex
Marksman - 141 att, 107 str, 1125 dex
Night Lord - 114 att, 1081 luk
Shadower (luk) - 150 att, 48 str, 171 dex, 1089 luk
Shadower (str) - 166 att, 85 str, 171 dex, 1053 luk
Buccaneer - 115 att, 1117 str, 143 dex
Corsair - 135 att, 127 str, 1125 dex
My only complaint is that this is for single targets only. Vs a mob makes a huge difference with most skills. If you are going to do single target, make sure to include Sacrifice with a PA (higher end of range on slash, lower on stab), as that is our primary 1v1 skill. I have been able to use it successfully while in Berserk, though obviously there are situations that this is not as safe as others.
Attack Speed Reference - Dusk - 2008-12-04
Okay, obviously I have a lot to say for myself.
Russt Wrote:Well... if it helps at all, I heard Demo can be spammed 33/minute, which is ~1.9 seconds.I'm just using LazyBui's numbers. That's what I was questioning.
As stated before, certain Brawler skills have different times depending whether they actually make contact or not, and I have a feeling that skills' speeds when they hit is a lot more relevant and interesting than when they don't.
Stereo Wrote:@Dusk the higher multiplier for 1h axe/BW is only 4.4, not 4.6. They do less damage.Ok, thanks.
JoeTang Wrote:None of the attack speeds consider Wind Booster, which may make a small difference to themselves, but as a collective against a boss, it will be slightly more significant.Paladin uses Blast. Hero uses Brandish. Not the same stab/swing ratios.
Barrage is considerably worse than Demolition. Without Stun, Buccaneer damage is considerably crappier.
What I don't understand is how a Paladin's average base damage is higher than a Hero's with the same stats. That, and a Night Lord's mastery should be 0.50, not 0.56.
I recommend you lower the Buccaneer's base DEX, since he has 143. He could do with at least 33 less. Not that that's a huge difference.
Buccaneers gain a 30STR Bonus in maxed Super Transform, and a 20 Attack Bonus in maxed Energy Charge, which I believe stacks with other attack bonuses, such as Warrior Elixers. Sadly a large portion of their damage comes from Stun Mastery, which has no effect on bosses.
Excel rounded the NL mastery from 5/9. Mastery % is not the exact number mainstat is multiplied by. There's a 0.9 to account for. 0.50/0.9 = 55.555555% mastery. I answer the DEX question elsewhere in this post.
Stun Mastery shouldn't affect Demolition greatly, as it only adds 60% damage. SE'd Bucs training should be quite godly though. I thought the 30 STR bonus didn't actually exist, but okay, will add.
Russt Wrote:?No, all classes are level 200, using level 120 weapons and level 100 armor, sorry if that wasn't clear. I had originally typed out this whole explanation for what I'm doing, but I'll save that for when my work is done. The Buc hits exactly 125 dex after equips. 80 base + 22 HT + 15 Zak + 5 FS + 3 Red Belly Duke = 125. The reason the final dex count is so high is because there's another 8 dex from MW and another 10 dex from the earrings. I don't count the earrings toward the 125 because that would mean the Buc would have to drop the weapon for GPQ. Other classes can scroll for mainstat with earrings, but Bucs can't. However, dex affects damage ever so slightly, so it is listed.
I think you're looking at the total, not base. But yeah, he could still do with 33 less. 110 knuckle only requires 110 to equip, does it not?
Stereo Wrote:Or the fact that the 1h Blunt/Axe have the highest min damage of any weapon with the lowest multiplier (3.2)..Oops, switched my min and max tables. I was wondering why everything was so stable o_o And no, BW has a higher average damage because right now, the numbers are purely geared toward calculating the damage with the attack chain listed. That's why secondary stat considerations are completely ignored for NLs. Brandish is 50/50 instead of 60/40. Meaning it has a lower "base Brandish" range.
2h BW should be: min 3262 max 8312 avg 5696
1h BW should be: min 3310 max 8205 avg 5673
An identical base range for a Sword Paladin/Hero should lead to identical average damage. Same is not true for Axe/BW. But the BW would be higher. I can't tell where your average damages came from.
MasPan Wrote:My only complaint is that this is for single targets only. Vs a mob makes a huge difference with most skills. If you are going to do single target, make sure to include Sacrifice with a PA (higher end of range on slash, lower on stab), as that is our primary 1v1 skill. I have been able to use it successfully while in Berserk, though obviously there are situations that this is not as safe as others.I'll get to that. I ignored Sac because I wasn't sure how to account for defense. On 0 defense targets, Sac sucks balls.
LazyBui, could you figure out the attack speed of Demolition with Wind Booster? That would settle the attack speed issue. The difference between 33 attacks per minute and 23 is incredible. I will make my own thread once these issues are cleaned up and I get a better looking spreadsheet.
Attack Speed Reference - Stereo - 2008-12-04
Dusk Wrote:Oops, switched my min and max tables. I was wondering why everything was so stable o_o And no, BW has a higher average damage because right now, the numbers are purely geared toward calculating the damage with the attack chain listed. That's why secondary stat considerations are completely ignored for NLs. Brandish is 50/50 instead of 60/40. Meaning it has a lower "base Brandish" range.Your 2h swords list 6084 and 6440 average for Hero and Paladin respectively though. Both use a 4.6 str multiplier all the time, no matter if they stab/slash, so their average damage would be the same.
Attack Speed Reference - Dusk - 2008-12-04
Stereo Wrote:Your 2h swords list 6084 and 6440 average for Hero and Paladin respectively though. Both use a 4.6 str multiplier all the time, no matter if they stab/slash, so their average damage would be the same.
The average damage for Heroes is the average of min and max. The average damage for Paladins is listed as max*0.6 + min*0.4. Again, I was setting it up purely to see if my numbers looked right. The average damage does not reflect how much damage is done with the normal attack, but rather how much damage each hit would do if the skill listed did 100% damage.
Attack Speed Reference - Stereo - 2008-12-04
Yeah, but that's not how Paladin damage works o.O
60% of the time (slash) it does 4307-7862, 40% of the time (stab) it does 4307-7862. The average is 6084 60% of the time and 6084 40% of the time, for 6084 overall average. With a BW it has different slash and stab damage ranges, so it's less redundant doing it this way.
Attack Speed Reference - JoeTang - 2008-12-04
No, Assassins don't have a 0.9 built in to their minimum range. It's exactly 0.50.