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+---- Thread: Post ascension Bishop build (/showthread.php?tid=47320)
Post ascension Bishop build - Takebacker - 2011-09-27
iamflip Wrote:Also... KhainiWest, seems like you prefer us to be your buff slaves, huh?
It's more that people get kinda sad when they see a fish trying to be a bear.
Or if it would make more sense to you...think of us all like parents. We love you, and tolerate your decision, but you're trying to be something you're not, and that makes us sad.
Post ascension Bishop build - Exidous - 2011-09-27
iamflip Wrote:Thanks to this thread, now I'm questioning myself what skill is beneficial to have maxed first. I mean... this is the skill build I have in my head when I go SP reset at my current level...Why bahamut so early, if you don't mind my asking?
1 Genesis
1 Res
Max AR
Max Buff Mastery
Max Baha
Start working on Adv. Blessing
I'm considering putting points in it since they tied our passive status resistance to it, but I'm not convinced I want it before infinity.
Here's my max order:
AR
Buff Mastery
Advanced Bless
Infinity
Res
Hero's Will
As far as single point skills, infinity is not much with one point, but pretty much everything else is worth putting one point in early if not immediately.
Takebacker Wrote:It's more that people get kinda sad when they see a fish trying to be a bear.It's pretty presumptuous to tell other people what their characters are for. The only time that decision is made is when you're putting together a boss run. In which case, if the damage bishop does do more damage than the next weakest attacker and skipped HS, would you not bring them out of spite? That would make you a lousy organizer. I personally think bishops will get the most out of optimizing support, but if someone wants to do otherwise, it's their business. An attack bishop makes at least as much sense as playing a class that's only useful for damage but doesn't have the best dps compared to other attacking classes.
Or if it would make more sense to you...think of us all like parents. We love you, and tolerate your decision, but you're trying to be something you're not, and that makes us sad.
Post ascension Bishop build - iamflip - 2011-09-27
Takebacker Wrote:It's more that people get kinda sad when they see a fish trying to be a bear.
Or if it would make more sense to you...think of us all like parents. We love you, and tolerate your decision, but you're trying to be something you're not, and that makes us sad.
Well what do you think Bishops are supposed to be, hmm? For all I know, you might have the same reasoning KhainiWest does.
Exidous Wrote:Why bahamut so early, if you don't mind my asking?
I'm considering putting points in it since they tied our passive status resistance to it, but I'm not convinced I want it before infinity.
Here's my max order:
AR
Buff Mastery
Advanced Bless
Infinity
Res
Hero's Will
As far as single point skills, infinity is not much with one point, but pretty much everything else is worth putting one point in early if not immediately.
Yeah, I wanted the status resistance that Baha gives... but now that I think about it, wouldn't Holy Magic Shell shield us from those things when the shield is up? If that is the case, I suppose I can leave Baha around 10 or 20 and use the SP on something more worthwhile.
Post ascension Bishop build - Takebacker - 2011-09-27
iamflip Wrote:Well what do you think Bishops are supposed to be, hmm? For all I know, you might have the same reasoning KhainiWest does.
I agree with most of what he said. 500k average is pretty pathetic. Bishops can attack if they want...it's just silly because the milliseconds could go towards using heal or some other buff to save everyone. Even worse is if you end up setting off damage reflect when we most need res. Attacking is too much of a risk for a bishop in major bossing regardless of what their damage is.
Post ascension Bishop build - Eliseo - 2011-09-27
Takebacker Wrote:I agree with most of what he said. 500k average is pretty pathetic. Bishops can attack if they want...it's just silly because the milliseconds could go towards using heal or some other buff to save everyone. Even worse is if you end up setting off damage reflect when we most need res. Attacking is too much of a risk for a bishop in major bossing regardless of what their damage is.
Who needs res when an Evan can revive 6 party members and with 30sec cooldown with CO? But that's counting you die only 1 time during 6 minutes. Evan + Bishop combo in party saves lots of wheels though. This is just post-ascension. Imagine when Evans can revive 7 PEOPLE! (lol)
While I agree that if bishops beat in damage other "attackers", then there is no reason they should just buff you, but bishops are mainly a support class. I know some bishops who will just not heal, because they have "attacking pride".
IF YOU FRGGIN GOT THE SKILL, WHY NOT USE IT? WHAT IS THIS PRIDE YOU TALK OF?
Some people should just become a pure attacking class, like heros or something
And why does everyone puts AR before Arcane Aim? The ignore monster def and overall damage buff it gives should help you more in LHC than maxing the main attacking skill. Same for the magic att of buff mastery.
Oh well.
Post ascension Bishop build - ShinkuDragon - 2011-09-27
Takebacker Wrote:I agree with most of what he said. 500k average is pretty pathetic. Bishops can attack if they want...it's just silly because the milliseconds could go towards using heal or some other buff to save everyone. Even worse is if you end up setting off damage reflect when we most need res. Attacking is too much of a risk for a bishop in major bossing regardless of what their damage is.
as i said, bossing-wise in serious scenarios, i'd like the bishop paying attention to surviving and saving, rather than dividing their attention between people getting locked, seduced, 1/1'd, and damage reflect coming up or not.
but training wise, unless i'm soloing 1 map, it annoys me when the bishop only stands on a rope and doesn't even make an effort to do anything. that is what gives the impression that "all bishops are mules"
Post ascension Bishop build - Exidous - 2011-09-27
iamflip Wrote:Yeah, I wanted the status resistance that Baha gives... but now that I think about it, wouldn't Holy Magic Shell shield us from those things when the shield is up? If that is the case, I suppose I can leave Baha around 10 or 20 and use the SP on something more worthwhile.I'm not expecting that to work. Whole screen status infliction doesn't always count as an attack at bosses, and I'm not even sure if divine shield blocks the status ailment part of an attack when its attached - that's the effect I'd compare holy magic shell to.
More than that, I'm still not convinced I'll be using holy magic shell regularly instead of saving it for when the party gets zombified and 1/1d or other such emergencies.
Post ascension Bishop build - Takebacker - 2011-09-27
Exidous Wrote:It's pretty presumptuous to tell other people what their characters are for. The only time that decision is made is when you're putting together a boss run. In which case, if the damage bishop does do more damage than the next weakest attacker and skipped HS, would you not bring them out of spite? That would make you a lousy organizer. I personally think bishops will get the most out of optimizing support, but if someone wants to do otherwise, it's their business. An attack bishop makes at least as much sense as playing a class that's only useful for damage but doesn't have the best dps compared to other attacking classes.
Do you have any idea how difficult it is to get a bishop for a boss run PERIOD? I don't care if they're an attacking bishop or not. Chances are he's going to be one of two MAYBE three bishops tasked with keeping the entire expedition alive. If you want to spend your time attacking don't take it personally when you waste everyone's wheels that you aren't invited to the next run. This is only with whatever res' CD is now though so...it won't be as big an issue.
Post ascension Bishop build - Exidous - 2011-09-27
Quote: Do you have any idea how difficult it is to get a bishop for a boss run PERIOD? I don't care if they're an attacking bishop or not. Chances are he's going to be one of two MAYBE three bishops tasked with keeping the entire expedition alive. If you want to spend your time attacking don't take it personally when you waste everyone's wheels that you aren't invited to the next run.So, around 1/6 of every person brought is a bishop. That's a pretty high occurrence considering there are well over a dozen different classes. You're telling me the support role a bishop plays is important. Granted, in fact that's what I count on personally. I agree with you that attempting to attack as a bishop when brought in a support capacity can be a big problem
My argument is that you don't compare a bishop who - for example - flat out didn't put points in dispel, hs, bless, and all other support skills with the other bishop you should be bringing, you compare it with the people whose job it's attempting to do: the other attackers. It's entirely conceivable that someone stubborn could fund a bishop to the point where they outdamage many other attackers. I'm saying in that uncommon case you should assess them as attackers, and only as that.
Its a shame that the concept of many different skill builds has been lost on most people in this game. Bishops can do the job of an attacker, they just have a lower percentage dps multiplier than the top of the dps chart. Which, by the way, you and most other people's classes in this thread probably do too. That's why I said "An attack bishop makes at least as much sense as playing a class that's only useful for damage but doesn't have the best dps compared to other attacking classes."
Post ascension Bishop build - iamflip - 2011-09-27
Takebacker Wrote:I agree with most of what he said. 500k average is pretty pathetic. Bishops can attack if they want...it's just silly because the milliseconds could go towards using heal or some other buff to save everyone. Even worse is if you end up setting off damage reflect when we most need res. Attacking is too much of a risk for a bishop in major bossing regardless of what their damage is.
The below pretty much said all that I wanted to say lol.
ShinkuDragon Wrote:as i said, bossing-wise in serious scenarios, i'd like the bishop paying attention to surviving and saving, rather than dividing their attention between people getting locked, seduced, 1/1'd, and damage reflect coming up or not.
but training wise, unless i'm soloing 1 map, it annoys me when the bishop only stands on a rope and doesn't even make an effort to do anything. that is what gives the impression that "all bishops are mules"
Exidous Wrote:I'm not expecting that to work. Whole screen status infliction doesn't always count as an attack at bosses, and I'm not even sure if divine shield blocks the status ailment part of an attack when its attached - that's the effect I'd compare holy magic shell to.
More than that, I'm still not convinced I'll be using holy magic shell regularly instead of saving it for when the party gets zombified and 1/1d or other such emergencies.
You're probably right. :/ While it doesn't have a long CD like Smokescreen or Party Shield, it does make a lot of sense to use it when we get Zombified or 1/1'd.
So ok... how about this kind of build...
1 Gen, 1 Res
Max AR
Max Adv. Bless
Max Buff Mastery
Max Bahamut (102 SP out of 108 spent at this point)
Work on Arcane Aim
Doable or no? lol
Post ascension Bishop build - Exidous - 2011-09-27
Basically, I'm saying bishops are awesome and we have completely different viable priorities to choose between. I can't tell you when to put support before attack or attack before support, but I can tell you which skills help your attacking power more on a per point basis. And which skills are more useful for support depending on the circumstance.
One thing I'd point out for you though is one point in arcane aim is 6% ignore pdrate at the bare minimum. That's a ~3% damage increase against end game bosses, for one SP. Well worth it compared to other damage sp.
In addition to maxing the things I said, I'm putting a point in big bang, arcane aim, bahamut, and genesis. And each of those individual points precedes most of the maxing in my opinion, the first point is just that good for most skills (that aren't infinity or mw). So here's the full build I think I'll do:
1 gen, res, adv bless, arcane aim, bahamut, hero's will, big bang
max Angel Ray
max Buff Mastery
max MW (I forgot this one the first time)
max Advanced Bless
max Infinity
max Res
max Hero's Will
max Bahamut
max Arcane Aim
This is practical for leveled bishops resetting, building from 120 would push some of the single points back if you don't care about bossing right away.
Post ascension Bishop build - Locked - 2011-09-27
Quick question.
If Bishops decided they didn't want Holy Symbol how many of those bishops would have a party?
Post ascension Bishop build - Exidous - 2011-09-27
Quote:If Bishops decided they didn't want Holy Symbol how many of those bishops would have a party?Well, hypothetically at LHC, everyone is incentivized to want the most efficient party possible. If you need more dps in order to do that, then the HS-less bishop would be preferred to the next weakest attacker. If he's the sixth weakest, he's out. Just like any other attacker.
It'd be a pain to have to explain every time you look for a party that you're a bishop that doesn't have HS, so I don't think it's actually a good idea. I'm trying to say that people need to get over their biases and optimize their parties, and there are circumstances where having a HSless bishop in the party could be the best available option.
Post ascension Bishop build - iamflip - 2011-09-27
Exidous Wrote:1 gen, res, adv bless, arcane aim, bahamut, hero's will, big bang
max Angel Ray
max Buff Mastery
max MW (I forgot this one the first time)
max Advanced Bless
max Infinity
max Res
max Hero's Will
max Bahamut
max Arcane Aim
I'd like to max MW, but the books are so damn expensive...
Thanks for your advice though. I think I know what I should do.
Post ascension Bishop build - Takebacker - 2011-09-27
Exidous Wrote:there are circumstances where having a HSless bishop in the party could be the best available option.
Oh really?
Post ascension Bishop build - Exidous - 2011-09-27
Sure, here's a scenario:
A 199 BM (best dps as of jump, I think) is making a party on CH1 bearwolves. There are six other people looking for a party, ranked in order of their dps:
a sair
a NL
a bam
a hsless bishop
a bucc
a support bishop
Guess who he shouldn't bring? Hint: it's not the hsless bishop.
Post ascension Bishop build - Locked - 2011-09-27
Exidous Wrote:Sure, here's a scenario:
A 199 BM (best dps as of jump, I think) is making a party on CH1 bearwolves. There are six other people looking for a party, ranked in order of their dps:
a sair
a NL
a bam
a hsless bishop
a bucc
a support bishop
Guess who he shouldn't bring? Hint: it's not the hsless bishop.
I'd take everything except the HSless bishop.
Post ascension Bishop build - Exidous - 2011-09-27
Why, if not for punitive bias?
The bucc has less damage than the hsless bishop, and none of those classes will benefit from SI.
Post ascension Bishop build - JoeTang - 2011-09-27
How does an HSless bishop outdamage a bucc? I would imagine if they're so stupid as to not max HS, they wouldn't be able to do any damage at all.
Post ascension Bishop build - Takebacker - 2011-09-27
Locked Wrote:I'd take everything except the HSless bishop.
As would i. As would the VAST majority of anyone over 190.
SI affects sairs and bishops and bowmen not using hurricane and bams not using e.staffs.