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+--- Thread: Possible Thief Changes? (/showthread.php?tid=40412)
Possible Thief Changes? - rhpot03 - 2011-04-12
Devil Wrote:And now, my Mechanic does twice the DPS of my Shad, despite being 7 lvls lower and wearing same equips (except for dagger), and since survival (HP) and tactics (Damage avoid) are not important anymore in Maple, Shadowers are a useless class to play. Cool movement, but really useless... Unless you pay a shietload of NX to get godly items (Dragon Khanjar) that doen't drop from monsters, except from the gachapon end-game boss monster...How can you lose faith of shadowers like that, anyone would tell you shadower is one of the best class to play right now. Survivability is actually quite desirable, how many other class can consistently survive a czak run? But I can see blooding your shadower is somewhat a downer... Also shadowers are not useless in terms of damage, we get the highest dps move in the whole game (ME), the trick is to learn how to position your character and control the mobs well so that no coin is gone to waste. It may take more skill to play than other classes that only spam 1 or 2 moves, but the payoff is well worth it. And fyi, gears isn't the defining factor for shadowers unlike many other classes. You actually need to play the class well to maximize your output.
Devil Wrote:It's funny to see the difference in DPS when both chars have the same unpotentialled equips:It has been agreed that mechanics are overpowered compared to every other class. There is a reason why mechs are nerfed and shadowers are buffed in the coming chaos patch. How are you handling pap on your shadower? If you're not doing so already, you might want to try staying on the top platforms and use bstep+assaulter between 2 platforms and forget ME altogether to avoid stun and dispel.
- Mechanic lvl 148 @ Papu -> 2min 34 secs (no potential crap)
- Shadower lvl 155 @ Papu -> 5mins 10 secs (no potential crap)
Devil Wrote:Also Shadowers totally suck at platform bosses, since mesos drop on the grond (for M.E.) and Assassinate 4th hit doesn't work (since you can't move, and other 3 hits have 0% Critical rate, even with 5% Base + 10% Ring + Sharp Eyes. And Assassinate range is too retarded small...I have to agree that shadowers are not optimal while fighting on platforms, but there are ways to get around it. The obvious one is try not to pin mobs on a ledge in the first place. Always try to face right to attack a mob since ME knockbacks mobs to the left, do so to move the mob back to the original place. If the mobs are pinned to a ledge, instead of facing them to keep them pinned (thus making half of the meso dropped down below), you should stand on top of the mob and attack facing away from the ledge. This causes the mobs to be KB away from the ledge and let more meso stay on the platform. Getting knocked off the ledge is not really a problem due to shadow shifter and high avoid. It is quick to flash jump onto a rope and assaulter back on to the platform and you can always drop a smokescreen if you want. As for assassinate, simply turn away from the ledge during the animation so that the 4th hit moves you away from the ledge if you're too close to it.
Possible Thief Changes? - Aggravate - 2011-04-12
Durex Wrote:I didnt say they dont need variety in their skills just that their main 2 skills, TT and Avenger dont need changing unless nexon pineappleed them up in chaos but since i dont play in kms i wouldnt know. I would love for NLs to get new skills i was only saying that out of the 2 thief classes NLs are pretty much in the least need for major bufpapayae.
Even if you don't play kMS, you should know that Nexon handles the NL class like s'hit when it comes to "variety". Think of the recent NL changes in kMS for the upcoming Chaos patch, and tell me what else Nexon has even done besides buffing Avenger and buffing TT/nerfing TT. There's not much skills that they can think of for NL's that wasn't put onto DB's.
So we don't have a bunch of skill sets to play with like Shadower's or DB's, but that doesn't mean that we can't at least have a good enough skill/buff that could replace Ninja Ambush, or Ninja Storm (and even Shadow Web & Shadow Mesos, but I won't go too deep). For the majority of NL's, 4th job feels like s'hit because there aren't a lot of skills that can help us on the offensive end. Remember, Venom's been nerfed post-BB, so the damage isn't really glorifying to gloat at. I don't think we need an Ultimate (except for the lulz), but a new mobbing skill could work. Hell, even a support skill would be better to put points onto than Ninja Ambush in all its entirety.
Possible Thief Changes? - Trust - 2011-04-12
Devil Wrote:It's funny to see the difference in DPS when both chars have the same unpotentialled equips:
- Mechanic lvl 148 @ Papu -> 2min 34 secs (no potential crap)
- Shadower lvl 155 @ Papu -> 5mins 10 secs (no potential crap)
After making a shadower for the first time post bb(had a 16x shad pre-bb) I discovered that bossing wise, Shadowers are superb at stationary bosses considering ME as their main dps skill. With chaos making Assassinate an autocast skill, i'm very interested in seeing if it can become a viable 1v1 skill on non stationary bosses. Although i wouldn't mind seeing an improvement to the skill as well, as some have mentioned, possibly a little bit more spammable and what not.
Generally i agree with most of the suggestions, remove ninja ambush completely, enable buffs within darksight, changed skill animations and some passive % damage increases to both thieves. Having had a 16x Shadower pre-bb and also having a 17x NL created due to NLs pretty much destroying shads in bossing, it would be nice to see some nice improvements.
Night Lords i think should have avenger moved to 2nd job, and either 3rd job/4th job gaining a multi hit mob skill. Maybe in the style of arrow rain with stars perhaps? Not sure really, just anything to really introduce an alternative to using avenger to mob.
Possible Thief Changes? - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-04-12
Trust Wrote:Night Lords i think should have avenger moved to 2nd job, and either 3rd job/4th job gaining a multi hit mob skill. Maybe in the style of arrow rain with stars perhaps? Not sure really, just anything to really introduce an alternative to using avenger to mob.
The problem here is, instead of using only Triple Throw and Avenger, it'll just end up being using only Triple Throw or the new mob skill. Classes like bowmen have unique ways to fight like placing puppets in smart locations. Corsairs have octopus placement. Mages have the elemental attribute management aspect. Night Lord playstyles are way too uncreative: Load up your buffs, face a monster, throw stars. There's very little "strategy" involved when it comes to Night Lords, except maybe FJ-ing to sniping spots.
Perhaps they need to change Shadow Web to something like this:
![[Image: shadowweb.jpg]](http://img849.imageshack.us/i/shadowweb.jpg/)
Throw out a web to create a temporal platform that can be suspended from midair. Night Lord and allies can jump onto the web and use it to attack from. Standing on the web gives them 100% stance or something because webs are sticky.
Either way, there's so many ideas that MapleStory can incorporate to make Night Lords a more versatile class other than just TT/Avenger spamming. They just choose not to for some reason.
Possible Thief Changes? - Alloy - 2011-04-12
The problem with Night Lords isn't attack variety.
I think the main attractive is that, with few kinds of attacks, we can be quite fancy to create strategies. However, that'd mean more passive stuff, or movement skills.
For example, That shadow web idea from ShanghaiDizzy is simply genious. Also, other things like the double jumping I said earlier, or something to make dark sight useful at 4th job. And something very awesome could be the skill to bypass the 140 speed 123 jump limits. Just bypass, not necesarily add extra of those... But then again, that could apply to shadowers too, I guess.
Possible Thief Changes? - Locked - 2011-04-12
Nice drawing, Mei.
The only suggestion I have regarding the thief class is make Ninja Ambush more useful, if anything. Maybe a rushing move for Shadowers and Night Lords. I don't ultimately see the point of having an ultimate, since chances are we'd never use it due to LHC being available and regular training is overshadowed by it. So far, the only person who's had interesting ideas is Sorien. As with the stance idea that was suggested earlier, although to be honest it isn't really needed since Night Lords are a ranged class.
Possible Thief Changes? - Alloy - 2011-04-12
Locked Wrote:Nice drawing, Mei.
The only suggestion I have regarding the thief class is make Ninja Ambush more useful, if anything. Maybe a rushing move for Shadowers and Night Lords. I don't ultimately see the point of having an ultimate, since chances are we'd never use it due to LHC being available and regular training is overshadowed by it. So far, the only person who's had interesting ideas is Sorien. As with the stance idea that was suggested earlier, although to be honest it isn't really needed since Night Lords are a ranged class.
Well, party stance is interesting enough. Although yeah, NLs with stance doesn't match well. Maybe just 10% stance so warriors can have 100% stance (not sure if warriors have 100% stance already), or something like that.
Possible Thief Changes? - Phoenix Wright - 2011-04-12
I think Hermits should replace Shadow Meso with a skill like this:
Take a Mech's rocket jump, greatly reduce the delay, reduce the maximum jump height, and remove the damage dealt on land.
Now, while they jump, they throw a flurry of, say, 4 stars to either side, and the star flurry doesn't overkill mobs (making it a semi useful mobbing skill in some situations while also giving extra mobility).
EDIT: Also, make Avenger only cost one star. Arrow Rain/Eruption shows like a dozen arrows in the animation, but it only uses one arrow o.o
Possible Thief Changes? - Worthyness - 2011-04-13
Phoenix Wright Wrote:I think Hermits should replace Shadow Meso with a skill like this:
Take a Mech's rocket jump, greatly reduce the delay, reduce the maximum jump height, and remove the damage dealt on land.
Now, while they jump, they throw a flurry of, say, 4 stars to either side, and the star flurry doesn't overkill mobs (making it a semi useful mobbing skill in some situations while also giving extra mobility).
EDIT: Also, make Avenger only cost one star. Arrow Rain/Eruption shows like a dozen arrows in the animation, but it only uses one arrow o.o
not like it matters though since all archers use Soul arrows and it wouldn't make a difference between 1 and 1000 in the first place. xD
Possible Thief Changes? - Sorien - 2011-04-13
Locked Wrote:So far, the only person who's had interesting ideas is Sorien.
And here I was thinking no one liked my ideas because I didn't get any replies!
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:The problem here is, instead of using only Triple Throw and Avenger, it'll just end up being using only Triple Throw or the new mob skill. Classes like bowmen have unique ways to fight like placing puppets in smart locations. Corsairs have octopus placement. Mages have the elemental attribute management aspect. Night Lord playstyles are way too uncreative: Load up your buffs, face a monster, throw stars. There's very little "strategy" involved when it comes to Night Lords, except maybe FJ-ing to sniping spots.
Perhaps they need to change Shadow Web to something like this:
Spoiler
Throw out a web to create a temporal platform that can be suspended from midair. Night Lord and allies can jump onto the web and use it to attack from. Standing on the web gives them 100% stance or something because webs are sticky.
Either way, there's so many ideas that MapleStory can incorporate to make Night Lords a more versatile class other than just TT/Avenger spamming. They just choose not to for some reason.
Mei, that idea is genius in its purest form!
A skill like that would make me actually want to play a Night Lord, and I thought that was impossible ever since I quit my assassin almost 5 years ago!
Possible Thief Changes? - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-04-13
Sadly, it won't take flight.
(No pun intended.)
Possible Thief Changes? - Sorien - 2011-04-13
Oh, here's an idea for Dual Blades that won't make them so freaking overpowered with double weapon potential.
Have they're damage range split into two rows (I suggested this for Mechs in the Pirate thread also), and give the top row to Daggers and the second row to Kataras. The top row will be affected by pretty much everything but the katara, and all attack boosts will be applied to that row. The second row will only use the Katara's attack and potential, with a damage formula of
[1.2 * (4 * LUK + STR + DEX) * (Katara ATT / 100)]. All attacks that hit multiple times will alternate from one row to the other, and all potential from the dagger and katara will affect their corresponding damage ranges, but the Katara's damage range won't be affected by any attack bonuses other than those stemming from the katara itself. Potential and stat bonuses from armor will affect both ranges.
Possible Thief Changes? - Phoenix Wright - 2011-04-13
Worthyness Wrote:not like it matters though since all archers use Soul arrows and it wouldn't make a difference between 1 and 1000 in the first place. xD
I know, but..consistency
Possible Thief Changes? - Venomous - 2011-04-15
Here's what I propose they do with nightlords:
- 1st job-
Disorder - needs to be ranged when used by nightlords
Dark sight - buffs should be usable in this state
- 2nd job -
Shadow resistance - max hp bonus increased from 10% to 15%. (I feel nightlords need the slight boost in durability)
- 3rd job -
This is where the problems with nightlords, as they exist now, begins. Shadow meso and dark flare need to be scrapped and replaced.
Dark flare
[New Skill] Vanish - Throw a flash grenade into the ground to distract enemies while escaping to higher ground. Enemies caught in the blast will be stunned.
(This would work much like the mechanics rocket boost but faster. The flash grenade will stun anything hit for 4 seconds and cause slight damage)
Shadow Web - Create a web of shadows in front of you. Enemies ensnared in the web will suffer continuous damage and cannot move even if attacked.
(I liked the idea posted earlier on shadow web so I'm incorporating that into my design. As stated earlier this revamped shadow web would create a large web in front of the character extending about as far as triple throw's range. A simple icon above an effected monsters head wont do. There has to be a large web visible the entire time the trap is up.
Taunt - Moved to third job. Reduce master level to 20 and increase number of targets from 6 to 10.
- 4th job -
Ninja ambush needs to be scrapped asap. Worst skill ever. Ninja storm was good, even with its flaws, when there was a minimum throw distance. Without a min. throw distance storm becomes obsolete.
Expert throwing star - Passive +10 weapon attack bonus now included.
Venomous star - Poison can now be stacked twice. Percentage damage increased from 140% to 160% and duration increased from 3 to 6 seconds.
[New Skill] Steel Rain - Summon hidden allies to assault enemies with a flurry of throwing stars. Attacks up to 15 monsters. Uses 100 throwing stars.
You're definitely going to want to have shadow stars on for that one.
[New Skill] Dark Lord's Assault - Summons the Dark Lord who hurls a gigantic shuriken at the enemy. The shuiken will fly forward until it strikes an enemy. The Shuriken will continuously spin, delivering a constant stream of intense damage. (Max lvl 30. Duration 45 seconds. Cool down time 60 seconds)
Think of a buzz saw. Upon striking the first enemy this giant shuriken (about twice the size of avenger) will remain in place and continue to spin and damage anything unfortunate enough to get caught. It'd be about the same speed as rapid fire and only about 2/3 as strong. Up to 6 monsters can be caught and damaged by the blade, and once caught will not be knocked out of the way by the attack itself.
[New Skill] Substitution - Quickly swap places with your shadow partner upon receiving a fatal blow. The substitution will not occur if shadow partner is not active.
This skill will come in the form of a buff which will not expire and cannot be dispelled. The trick is making sure you have shadow partner active when hit with that fatal attack or else you're screwed. The cool down time of 60 minutes starts when the fatal blow is received and the replacement occurs.
Possible Thief Changes? - Takebacker - 2011-04-15
...So you just gave them an ultimate and a free pass at death despite one of the highest avoidability in the game? That doesn't sound like what NLs need at all.
Possible Thief Changes? - Venomous - 2011-04-15
Takebacker Wrote:...So you just gave them an ultimate and a free pass at death despite one of the highest avoidability in the game? That doesn't sound like what NLs need at all.
Unless they unfuck the avoid system, having the best avoid means next to nothing.
Possible Thief Changes? - Alloy - 2011-04-15
Takebacker Wrote:...So you just gave them an ultimate and a free pass at death despite one of the highest avoidability in the game? That doesn't sound like what NLs need at all.
I have to agree with you.
We need a fun class, original from anything else, not a nuclear missile tank.
Possible Thief Changes? - Takebacker - 2011-04-15
Venomous Wrote:Unless they unpineapple the avoid system, having the best avoid means next to nothing.
They unf'uck it in chaos. :o
Possible Thief Changes? - CarrionCrow - 2011-04-15
Takebacker Wrote:They unf'uck it in chaos. :o
Do we really have enough solid data to determine that? I have 67XX P and M avoid and it is not blowing air up my skirt let me tell you. Especially not with the glitched invincibility frames. If chaos even takes us half way back to the old, I will be happy as pineapple.
Possible Thief Changes? - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-04-16
I'm curious to see that data, too. Though that said, having the best avoid in the game doesn't mean anything when the moment you get hit at full health and you still die just because you're a non-HP washed 200 NL.