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+---- Thread: [Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges (/showthread.php?tid=33706)
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - ghostofhalo - 2010-12-06
MysticHLE Wrote:Besides for bossing expectations based on the current status quo, logically, is there any particular reason why you'd expect a 3-hit triple mob skill to outdamage any specialized single target skill?You are aware that Enrage is no longer a weapon attack buff but a damage buff that magically makes all skills hit one target, right? You deal an additional 60% (x1.6) on all attacks but can only hit one target. So to answer your question, yes, I do think it should compete.
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - KhainiWest - 2010-12-06
This looks like it was a last minute change based on the reconstruction patch, Post-BB in this case would have no relevance which is probably why you're so confused. Why they made such a radical change last minute is beyond me, and is certaintly unfair.
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - ghostofhalo - 2010-12-06
DustBunny Wrote:This looks like it was a last minute change based on the reconstruction patch, Post-BB in this case would have no relevance which is probably why you're so confused. Why they made such a radical change last minute is beyond me, and is certaintly unfair.I highly doubt it was a last minute change since the damage would be much higher in Restructuring to balance the classes out. I'm assuming they just screwed up somewhere with the delay whether it's referencing Brandish (likely) or has some crazy Booster gain (unlikely).
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - OB3LISK - 2010-12-06
MysticHLE Wrote:And how about Horntail, the boss where a Hero can mob arm + legs + wings all at once due to the ridiculous range of Brandish/Intrepid (Brave) Slash?
Still planning on having warriors hit more than one part of HT at once, and making warriors the main attackers of HT eh? Not like it matters, since good profitable HT squads are 6 people these days. ANd if you have 6 people lol they better be potential $$irl$$ stacked.
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - ghostofhalo - 2010-12-06
MysticHLE Wrote:And how about Horntail, the boss where a Hero can mob arm + legs + wings all at once due to the ridiculous range of Brandish/Intrepid (Brave) Slash?I'll repeat, with a 1140ms delay, Heroes would have the worst mobbing attack. Charged Blow has a larger range in comparison (5 further out, 23 higher) and Crusher has a near equivilant (5 further out, 10 lower). Since the two would rank higher in DPS, Brave Slash would still fail in comparison. Even a fully self-buffed Paladin with no advantage using ACB beats Brave Slash on 3 targets (around 6-10% overall depending on charges/weapon type). A buffed Dark Knight with Crusher would beat it by about 28% overall. It even does less damage than Fury.
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - MysticHLE - 2010-12-06
ghostofhalo Wrote:I'll repeat, with a 1140ms delay, Heroes would have the worst mobbing attack. Charged Blow has a larger range in comparison (5 further out, 23 higher) and Crusher has a near equivilant (5 further out, 10 lower). Since the two would rank higher in DPS, Brave Slash would still fail in comparison. Even a fully self-buffed Paladin with no advantage using ACB beats Brave Slash on 3 targets (around 6-10% overall depending on charges/weapon type). A buffed Dark Knight with Crusher would beat it by about 28% overall. It even does less damage than Fury.
Well, if DPS and damage down to the exact % (out of like 2000% damage) are all you look at in balance, then...I don't have much to say. =|
OB3LISK Wrote:Still planning on having warriors hit more than one part of HT at once, and making warriors the main attackers of HT eh? Not like it matters, since good profitable HT squads are 6 people these days. ANd if you have 6 people lol they better be potential $$irl$$ stacked.
Play the game however you want - for profit, fun, or speed of a run; smart strategy is still smart strategy. If it really doesn't matter to you, perhaps you can try to convince people too that 28% damage on a 2000% damage scale doesn't matter either.
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - ghostofhalo - 2010-12-06
MysticHLE Wrote:Well, if DPS and damage down to the exact % (out of like 2000% damage) are all you look at in balance, then...I don't have much to say. =|I'm not looking for ideal matches. I'm saying that an attack that hits 3 targets should deal more than an attack that hits 6 targets. If Enrage buffs that attack 60% and decreases targets to 1, it should compete with other 1v1 skills. Blast gains power from elemental advantage and crit rate, Sacrifice (in theory) gains damage as the monster has more defense, and Brave Slash should be on the middle ground with raw damage and no elemental advantage. There is no reason a skill should fail so terribly that it's a joke to consider an attack when all other 1v1 attacks at the same level and attacks that hit double the mob count can outdamage it.
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - MysticHLE - 2010-12-06
ghostofhalo Wrote:I'm not looking for ideal matches. I'm saying that an attack that hits 3 targets should deal more than an attack that hits 6 targets. If Enrage buffs that attack 60% and decreases targets to 1, it should compete with other 1v1 skills. Blast gains power from elemental advantage and crit rate, Sacrifice (in theory) gains damage as the monster has more defense, and Brave Slash should be on the middle ground with raw damage and no elemental advantage. There is no reason a skill should fail so terribly that it's a joke to consider an attack when all other 1v1 attacks at the same level and attacks that hit double the mob count can outdamage it.
Mind showing me how you're doing your raw damage % calculations for Hero vs. Paladin? Intrepid Slash vs. ACB, that is.
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - ghostofhalo - 2010-12-06
MysticHLE Wrote:Mind showing me how you're doing your raw damage % calculations for Hero vs. Paladin? Intrepid Slash vs. ACB, that is.
All characters have clean weapons, stats of 999/23/4/4, and only have their own buffs (Combat Orders/PDRate/identical buffs not included).
Hero with Nibleheim, Brave Slash 840ms
Hero with Nibleheim, Brave Slash 1140ms
Paladin with Nibleheim, ACB, holy advantage
Paladin with Nibleheim, ACB, no advantage
Results
Booster, Final Attack, and Maple Warrior (for example) will raise each other's stats equally. Booster may not, but I'm unaware of the Fast (4) speed of an 1140ms attack. If you see something wrong, let me know. I'll gladly update my table and edit this appropriately.EDIT: Compared to ACB (which hits double the targets), it's pretty decent in Big Bang in either case (preference to 840ms since it does not stun or hit 6 targets). In Restructuring, not so much as ACB gets buffed far beyond Brave Slash.
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - andyandythin - 2010-12-06
anyone have a link for a video which shows the slow brave slash?
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - JoeTang - 2010-12-06
ghostofhalo Wrote:All characters have clean weapons, stats of 999/23/4/4, and only have their own buffs (Combat Orders/PDRate/identical buffs not included).
Hero with Nibleheim, Brave Slash 840ms
Hero with Nibleheim, Brave Slash 1140ms
Paladin with Nibleheim, ACB, holy advantage
Paladin with Nibleheim, ACB, no advantage
ResultsBooster, Final Attack, and Maple Warrior (for example) will raise each other's stats equally. Booster may not, but I'm unaware of the Fast (4) speed of an 1140ms attack. If you see something wrong, let me know. I'll gladly update my table and edit this appropriately.
Blast's critical rate only applies to Blast as far as I know.
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - ghostofhalo - 2010-12-06
JoeTang Wrote:Blast's critical rate only applies to Blast as far as I know.Oh, right. I'll double check my numbers, but most of which were copied straight from my excel file, so it's fairly safe to assume the results are still correct. I'll check and edit them now.
EDIT: I've updated my prior post and my table. Brave Slash (1140ms) now ranks above ACB when attacking targets that aren't elementally weak but not above Fury. This of course is geared toward Restructuring while my prior post is Big Bang.
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - Baklava - 2010-12-06
ghostofhalo Wrote:All characters have clean weapons, stats of 999/23/4/4, and only have their own buffs (Combat Orders/PDRate/identical buffs not included).
Hero with Nibleheim, Brave Slash 840ms
Hero with Nibleheim, Brave Slash 1140ms
Paladin with Nibleheim, ACB, holy advantage
Paladin with Nibleheim, ACB, no advantage
ResultsBooster, Final Attack, and Maple Warrior (for example) will raise each other's stats equally. Booster may not, but I'm unaware of the Fast (4) speed of an 1140ms attack. If you see something wrong, let me know. I'll gladly update my table and edit this appropriately.
EDIT: Compared to ACB (which hits double the targets), it's pretty decent in Big Bang in either case (preference to 840ms since it does not stun or hit 6 targets). In Restructuring, not so much as ACB gets buffed far beyond Brave Slash.
So is that what you want? Where Brave Slash is grossly overpowered compared to Advanced Charge Blow, even when it has an elemental advantage?
Sure thing. You sound like you know about balance, bro.
Because those tiny area bosses really make a paladin useful.
Mhm.
also
Quote:IGN: ViralAvenger
Server: Demethos
Level: 15X
Job: [SIZE="6"]Hero[/SIZE]
lolbiased
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - ghostofhalo - 2010-12-06
Baklava Wrote:So is that what you want? Where Brave Slash is grossly overpowered compared to Advanced Charge Blow, even when it has an elemental advantage?I wasn't aware that +2.07% was grossly overpowered. ACB stuns 90% of the time and hits double the targets. A fraction of extra damage is fair with a tradeoff like that.
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - Anonymous Moose - 2010-12-06
Baklava Wrote:So is that what you want? Where Brave Slash is grossly overpowered compared to Advanced Charge Blow, even when it has an elemental advantage?
Sure thing. You sound like you know about balance, bro.
Because those tiny area bosses really make a paladin useful.
Mhm.
also
lolbiased
Why should Blast and ACB be vastly superior in almost every situation?
Anyway Post BB:
Brandish: 1579.34% x3
ACB: 1330.87% x7
This is what I would call balance. Brandish is superior on small groups, and ACB is superior on large groups (and this doesnt factor in elemental advantages).
Enraged Brandish: 2767.60%
Blast: 2299.11%
Blast (Ice Charge/Ice Weak): 2768.15% (I'd add in lightning charge, but I dont know how if affects the elemental advantage)
Here, it shows Heroes have the advantage on Elementally Resistant and Neutral targets, while Paladins will be superior on all that are weak to at least one element.
However, post-restucture:
Brandish: 1255.46%
ACB: 1544.96%
So now ACB is vastly superior and it stuns...
Enraged Brandish: 2187.30%
Blast: 2450.36%
And in this case, we would only have a handful of situations where Brandish would be stronger than Blast: A PDR of 50% or higher (although these calculations do not factor in threaten, and threaten obviously makes the Paladin a better choice at Zakum and HT), and elementally resistant monsters.
You also need to keep in mind that Paladins have far more defensive skills, at least two "buffs" to help the party significantly, and are more likely to reach their optimal DPM. Heroes, excluding shared skills, only have offensive skills and rage, their only party buff, is easily replaced.
Edit: These calculations are in %/second and assuming a fast 5 weapon. Also note that Blave Slash is nerfed to the point where players that hit the speed cap will see Brandish outdamaging Brave Slash.
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - CrossMyHeart - 2010-12-06
Ghostofhalo has been extremely coherent and unaggressive. If this is indeed true, Heros just became the new Shadower or Buccaneer. Paladins and DrKs have useful buffs. Heros are meant to be a DPS class. Again, I hope this is some mistake before I nerdrage as well.
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - ghostofhalo - 2010-12-06
Anonymous Moose Wrote:Why should Blast and ACB be vastly superior in almost every situation?I completely agree with you. Heroes should be more powerful on neutral and resistant monsters even just marginally. Although, I'm more curious to know the logic behind how you came up with Brandish out-damaging Brave Slash.
EDIT:
CrossMyHeart Wrote:Ghostofhalo has been extremely coherent and unaggressive.I appreciate the comment. I've really been trying to keep my nerdrage to a minimum seeing as how I devoted a lot of time to this (my Hero). I'm more so waiting to see how Brave Slash works in Big Bang since it would appear to have the same speed as Brandish although the delay says different.
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - ghostofhalo - 2010-12-06
Slipped and double posted. Sorry.
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - monkeyfist - 2010-12-06
Is there a reason to make a Hero anymore?
Paladin- High Defense, Invincibility, added crit to their 1v1 + c/o + 94% Mastery
Dark Knight- H/B, added crit to dragon skills, 90% mastery
Hero- Rage?
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges - hadriel - 2010-12-06
This might not necessarily be the last of the restructuring patches. Take things with a little salt.
Hadriel