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+--- Thread: What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? (/showthread.php?tid=33430)
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - RahlsSoldier - 2010-12-08
Mute Wrote:I want to clarify something for you; not anyone in the military can have access to any kind of document. There's, speaking from the perspective of someone going into the navy in june, 3 levels of security clearance: top-secret -> secret -> unclassified. If someone has access to only unclassified documents within the military then they can be charged for obtaining and releasing information above their level of security clearance. Court martials, dishonorable discharges, heavy fines and penalties, and even jail sentences.
But yes, there are many incompetant people in the nation, both in the common masses and in the leaders thereof. However, not everyone is ignorant to the world around then, nor oblivious to the things that go on. While we do have some very educated people in the nation, the one hindrance i see most prevalent and annoying is all the bureaucratic red-tape that only serves to slow down and complicate an otherwise simple process for something as stupid as getting a license to be able to own/operate a firearm.
I thought the order of document classification was: top-secret -> secret -> confidential -> unclassified. Regardless, the man who is suspected of leaking the information to wikileaks was not a highly ranked officer, or even an officer at all. In fact, he was a Private First Class. My understanding is that this a one of the lowest ranks in the military (only enlisted, not an officer or warrant officer). The officer, Bradley Manning, was only arrested on providing unauthorized use and disclosure of U.S. classified information. If this is indeed the case, he didn't go above his level of security clearance. It then follows that the information was already pretty freely available, if someone with his rank and his security clearance could access things that are so important that they are national threats.
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - Mute - 2010-12-08
RahlsSoldier Wrote:I thought the order of document classification was: top-secret -> secret -> confidential -> unclassified. Regardless, the man who is suspected of leaking the information to wikileaks was not a highly ranked officer, or even an officer at all. In fact, he was a Private First Class. My understanding is that this a one of the lowest ranks in the military (only enlisted, not an officer or warrant officer). The officer, Bradley Manning, was only arrested on providing unauthorized use and disclosure of U.S. classified information. If this is indeed the case, he didn't go above his level of security clearance. It then follows that the information was already pretty freely available, if someone with his rank and his security clearance could access things that are so important that they are national threats.
You're comparing an enlisted soldier to an average citizen with that however. Sure someone with as low a rank as him could access it, but anyone off the streets would have an issue with getting that same information easily.
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - RahlsSoldier - 2010-12-08
Mute Wrote:You're comparing an enlisted soldier to an average citizen with that however. Sure someone with as low a rank as him could access it, but anyone off the streets would have an issue with getting that same information easily.
Considering that:
Wikipedia Wrote:As of December 31, 2009 1,421,668 people are on active duty iin the military with an additional 848,000 people in the seven reserve components.1,421,668+848,000 =2,269,668 people are in the US military and would have the same access privileges, I would consider that freely (or pretty freely) available.
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - Mute - 2010-12-08
RahlsSoldier Wrote:Considering that: 1,421,668+848,000 =2,269,668 people are in the US military and would have the same access privileges, I would consider that freely (or pretty freely) available.
But you're still using the military for that number. Reserves are still in the service; what I am saying is that people that have not once signed the contract to serve in any branch of the US military would not have the same level of ease to obtain those documents as someone within the military.
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - RahlsSoldier - 2010-12-08
Mute Wrote:But you're still using the military for that number. Reserves are still in the service; what I am saying is that people that have not once signed the contract to serve in any branch of the US military would not have the same level of ease to obtain those documents as someone within the military.
Yes, I understand what you are saying, it is only available to military personnel. However, what I am saying is that if 2 million people having access to documents such as these, there is potential for a security breach. If these documents are this easy to access, then all I would need to do, if I was a terrorist organisation, is get one person to enlist in the military to have access to all of this and more. To me, that is a security flaw that has to be addressed.
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - Mute - 2010-12-08
RahlsSoldier Wrote:Yes, I understand what you are saying, it is only available to military personnel. However, what I am saying is that if 2 million people having access to documents such as these, there is potential for a security breach. If these documents are this easy to access, then all I would need to do, if I was a terrorist organisation, is get one person to enlist in the military to have access to all of this and more. To me, that is a security flaw that has to be addressed.
You have a background check done on you when you first go up into MEPS (or to be more concise, you fill out paperwork saying that everything on your application to the military is accurate and you consent to a background check). Sure it can happen that an organization can infiltrate the military, but that happens all the time with espionage. I mean hell, you can do/go anywhere if you have the right connections to people.
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - Rob - 2010-12-08
Cactuar Wrote:Rob, that's not an argument and you know it. Spidey has outlined several reasons why a completely transparent government is not ideal at this time.
C'mon Ben, everyone and their mother knows that there are no reasons for governments not to be transparent. Ideally, yes, but basing your argument only around the idea of a realistic setting is as flawed as pulling the ideal setting.
''Governments have reasons to hide information.'' While they're at it, why don't they just go nazi propaganda and manipulate us all? Extreme, yes, but justifying it is giving it power that it should never have. I prefer going by a ''No manipulation'' policy and just accept that things don't happen the way we want all the time, because that is, indeed, the reality.
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - Erich - 2010-12-08
Wikileaks is DIGGING ITS OWN GRAVE. They DDOS'd mastercard today as some form of lashing out. They are already walking a thin line with the more or less legality of their website; and now they are actually doing blatantly illegal things. Too bad wikileaks has the power of anon on their side, basically. Not so much anon itself but the powers that they all hold; one of that being anonymous.
And talking about transparent governments, you have to realize that the rest of the world does the same things we do. There isn't an honest government in this world. There won't be for a long time, either. Until the world can collectively as one get rid of this system, we can't be transparent.
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - KhainiWest - 2010-12-08
RahlsSoldier Wrote:How can someone be a traitor to your country if he isn't from your country? I don't understand Americans at all. Now, if he had been an American citizen and then attempted to overthrow your government, he could be called a traitor. He isn't from the USA, so I don't understand how you can call him a traitor.
What are you talking about, "paying for those documents"? As far as I know, all wikileak material is free.
Also, the vast majority of the information in the leaked diplomatic cables is government related, not 'fragile information on individuals'. You sound like Palin with your traitor crap. The guy released diplomatic information that was so heavily classified, a lowly member of your military was able to provide all of this information to him. I think the fault lays with your government being completely incompetent.
Note: by your tone, I assume you are American.
Not going to argue with a prejudice canadian especially with a country who just recently gained independence from the queen back in what, 1982?
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - CommanderJinn - 2010-12-08
DustBunny Wrote:Not going to argue with a prejudice canadian especially with a country who just recently gained independence from the queen back in what, 1982?
Technically she's still Head of State, but that position is a product of American historical point of view and is completely besides the point. The queen has no power to make any decision whatsoever. She's just a figure head.
Anyways it doesn't matter whether it's wartime or not, every government should be held accountable for what they have done/plan on doing. The government serves the people, what good is a government who acts behind the backs of their own population. I mean sure, you can pull the national security argument, but the population has a right to know what they get themselves into during war in the first place.
Whatever the case, if Assange get's convicted (as unlikely as it is) he'll be a martyr. If not, he'll continue his work and governments, and companies will find themselves needing to be more accountable.
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - Soapy - 2010-12-08
Erich Wrote:Wikileaks is DIGGING ITS OWN GRAVE. They DDOS'd mastercard today as some form of lashing out. They are already walking a thin line with the more or less legality of their website; and now they are actually doing blatantly illegal things. Too bad wikileaks has the power of anon on their side, basically. Not so much anon itself but the powers that they all hold; one of that being anonymous.You really believe it was Wikileaks who DDoS'd Mastercard and Visa today? -sigh-
And talking about transparent governments, you have to realize that the rest of the world does the same things we do. There isn't an honest government in this world. There won't be for a long time, either. Until the world can collectively as one get rid of this system, we can't be transparent.
It's Anonymous, and they've formed a botnet. Mastercard and Visa events were just publicity; in the beginning there were only 50 and now there's about 4000. They claim once they reach 5000 they will all hit Paypal and hit it hard. (That's what she said)
If they disrupt Paypal during holiday shopping, there will be gigantic losses.
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - Cancambo - 2010-12-08
Erich Wrote:Wikileaks is DIGGING ITS OWN GRAVE. They DDOS'd mastercard today as some form of lashing out. They are already walking a thin line with the more or less legality of their website; and now they are actually doing blatantly illegal things. Too bad wikileaks has the power of anon on their side, basically. Not so much anon itself but the powers that they all hold; one of that being anonymous.
And talking about transparent governments, you have to realize that the rest of the world does the same things we do. There isn't an honest government in this world. There won't be for a long time, either. Until the world can collectively as one get rid of this system, we can't be transparent.
Like Soapy said, that isn't WikiLeaks doing the DDoSing. Anonymous is behind the attacks because they want to avenge WikiLeaks. WikiLeaks is advocating for good things. They want to make governments better for everyone, they're not gong to jeopardize their integrity by doing something that is actually illegal.
DustBunny Wrote:Not going to argue with a prejudice canadian especially with a country who just recently gained independence from the queen back in what, 1982?
This is why everyone hates us.
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - RahlsSoldier - 2010-12-08
DustBunny Wrote:Not going to argue with a prejudice canadian especially with a country who just recently gained independence from the queen back in what, 1982?
The reason I said what I said is because you were being an ass, and because the way you phrased yourself made it seem like you were in America (Ie. you called him a traitor to your country).
That being said, you are continuing to be an ass. There is a difference between prejudice and not having respect for a government based on their current actions. I don't have a problem with the USA. I don't like the way it is run, but that had nothing to do with this argument.
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - FrozNlite - 2010-12-09
Obviously heard tons about this recently, but didn't really delve too much into it until today when this story headlined top news on my Comcast homepage:
WikiLeaks backers hit Mastercard and Visa in cyber attacks
Damn. Like Spidey said, the
Oh, and more related, extremely interesting reading:
TIME: Why WikiLeaks is Winning the Info War
Getting kind of V for Vendetta in here, eh? The fight for truth taking place in London?
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - Cancambo - 2010-12-09
FrozNlite Wrote:Obviously heard tons about this recently, but didn't really delve too much into it until today when this story headlined top news on my Comcast homepage:
WikiLeaks backers hit Mastercard and Visa in cyber attacks
Damn. Like Spidey said, theindividualsrebels banded together performing these DDoS attacks have BALLS.
Oh, and more related, extremely interesting reading:
TIME: Why WikiLeaks is Winning the Info War
Getting kind of V for Vendetta in here, eh? The fight for truth taking place in London?
They're gonna go for PayPal
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - Soapy - 2010-12-09
And.... down.
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - Rob - 2010-12-09
LOL
Paypal down is just going too far... NOT.
Anon is trolling the info war and I'm loving it
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - Mute - 2010-12-09
Soapy Wrote:And.... down.
...oh god...
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - Cancambo - 2010-12-09
Apparently PayPal is going to release the frozen WikiLeak funds. They're going to keep the account restricted still.
What do you think of Assange and Wikileaks? - FrozNlite - 2010-12-09
PayPal's back up.