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+--- Thread: Adventurer rings were nerfed again. (/showthread.php?tid=21407)
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Chameleonic - 2010-01-11
DualReaver Wrote:It is a proven fact that the awe you command in game is directly proportional to how rare your class is. Some people have never even heard of Paladins. You're not gonna see that many people staring in awe at a NL except if he does like 40k per star without an apple.
lol I've been asked what class a Marksman is...while I'm holding a crossbow.
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Draconire - 2010-01-12
Hey guys, I'm sorry if this has been posted up before but just to ask. I heard many people mentioning that the Critical Ring is better that Cruel Ring for attackers that already have Critical Shot / Throw. As both of the Rings seems to be similar to be, 1 with 1 WA higher, dealing 20% extra damage with 5% chance, while the other dealing only 10% extra damage but with twice the chance of 10%. May I just ask how is it that it is true for Critical Ring to be better? >< Like is there any calculation done to determine that?
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Beaner - 2010-01-12
Lozmaster Wrote:The only people who believe that are the couple of 4th job marksmen who bang there heads against the wall, yell and shout every time someone points out they aren't nearly as weak as they make out
If by couple you mean every MM past 150 and with at least half a brain, yes you are right.
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Chameleonic - 2010-01-12
If anything we are weaker than we make out.
As I asked in the DPS thread I'd like to see what the other classes minimum damage output is, I bet MM would have close to the lowest minimun...my non crit Strafes can go as low as 15kish total damage.
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Lozmaster - 2010-01-12
XBish Wrote:If by couple you mean every MM past 150 and with at least half a brain, yes you are right.
I'm not starting this crap again. Prove it or shutup. Especially with the new ring
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Beaner - 2010-01-12
Lozmaster Wrote:I'm not starting this crap again. Prove it or shutup. Especially with the new ring
Its been proven time and again you just refuse to see it.
With the current kms updates MM rank around shadowers in DPS, around hero level with the current rings. The ring does make MM decent, however it is game breaking for NL and BM.
It is sad that you can't get reality, if every MM in this forum says we are weak compared to other ranged classes, it is you who is wrong, not the world.
As show kayako, 180 corsair has a DPS that is about 50% higher than mine, we have similar equips and train at about the same rate. If this isn't evidence enough for you, then nothing is.
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Lozmaster - 2010-01-12
XBish Wrote:Its been proven time and again you just refuse to see it.Good, it will only take you a minute or 2 to go copy paste the proof then. Amazing how you both claim this repeatedly and never do though
Seriously. First with you guys its WAAHHH EVERYONE OUTDPSES US, then with the new rings that make you less than 1 strafe per minute damage difference between that and the 120% strafe you were both begging for, putting you ahead of everyone in Single target DPS except corsairs nightlords and bowmasters, despite being a better mobber than both NLs and bms by miles, it's "unfair". OH wait, corsairs are better than everyone in mobbing AND 1v1, so, not balanced until you can hit the same as corsairs 1v1 AND vs mobs? We all know corsairs are broken, but you've both made it pretty damn clear you wouldn't settle for anything but marksmen being the excellent mobbing they have as well as being upgraded to best 1v1'er in the game
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Bribery - 2010-01-12
Furthermore, Corsairs don't have any party skills at all so I don't see why Marksmen are comparing their damage to a Corsair's. The rings give enough of a boost to Marksmen.
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Beaner - 2010-01-12
Lozmaster Wrote:Good, it will only take you a minute or 2 to go copy paste the proof then. Amazing how you both claim this repeatedly and never do though
http://www.southperry.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22592
http://www.southperry.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22639&page=1
read that then.
Lozmaster Wrote:Good, it will only take you a minute or 2 to go copy paste the proof then. Amazing how you both claim this repeatedly and never do though
Seriously. First with you guys its WAAHHH EVERYONE OUTDPSES US, then with the new rings that make you less than 1 strafe per minute damage difference between that and the 120% strafe you were both begging for, putting you ahead of everyone in Single target DPS except corsairs nightlords W/SE and bowmasters, (If the night lord has no SE, pretty sure you're ahead of them too...) despite being a better mobber than both NLs and bms by miles, it's "unfair". OH wait, corsairs are better than everyone in mobbing AND 1v1, so, not balanced until you can hit the same as corsairs 1v1 AND vs mobs? We all know corsairs are broken, but you've both made it pretty damn clear you wouldn't settle for anything but marksmen being the excellent mobbing they have as well as being upgraded to best 1v1'er in the game
i have not complained about the dpos i have after the ring, it however saddens me that they boosted 2 classes that did not need it at the same time. my class is decent with the ring however the range between BM NLs and everyone else became larger, you dont mind it of course you are a BM but it sucks for every non passive crit class out there.
mobbing and training, sigh it is so sad how people have this crazy idea that MM are mages or something. we do have a nice mob skill and it deals huge numbers, you forget though that it requires charge time and that it wont 1hko the first 1-2 monsters it hits AT BEST. so that leaves for another pierce or IA or strafes to kill the last couple monsters. we dont kill faster than other non mage classes and we dont train faster than other non mage classes. yet i have NEVER asked for more pierce or shorter pierce i jsut wanted a better 1vs1 and a fixed snipe, i dont see why you think thats too much. we do have ice and make training easy. it is fun to hiy 200ks with my pierce and it is cool to snipe stuff when i can. i am asking to be a sair or a BM just somewhere close enough that i dont feel like all my equips are wasted on a lolMM. if this ring was for MM only it be fine by me, like you said its close to the 120% strafe.
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Chameleonic - 2010-01-12
For all our DPS and so called mobbing abilities we dont train very fast. As I've said I get 6-7mill and hour with my crappy equips...and if Carlos still needs to strafe or use a second pierce on the first 2 monsters (as I do) with his damage range (which is almost double mine), then having omg equips isnt going to make that much of an increase to my exp an hour(Carlos can correct me if I'm way off and he gets like 12mill an hour soloingon 1x with no HS mule
)...now where was I going...oh yeah. DPS is so overrated as is mobbing ability. Dk's, Heroes, Shadowers, Mages, Bish, Corsairs all train faster than I can, current paladins train about the same according to what Stereo said...that leaves MM about 9th? fastest trainers even with all our DPS and mobbing.
I've always said I'm more concerned about training speed than DPS.
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Stereo - 2010-01-12
XBish Wrote:If by couple you mean every MM past 150 and with at least half a brain, yes you are right.
Funny how in the guild my NL is in, the top two DPS characters at CKPQ and Zakum are both Marksmen.. I've never heard them complaining. Why is it such a big deal that Corsairs are a bit stronger on paper? You beat the other dozen classes fine.
Remember that 8x exp event? A couple Marksmen were in the top exp gains (aside from Mages, who have a big advantage). I guess it is slow if you never upgrade and you don't party.
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - ArbalistMaster - 2010-01-12
Chameleonic Wrote:lol I've been asked what class a Marksman is...while I'm holding a crossbow.
I've been asked to use hurricane ...
And about MMs, it's no use trying to explain it to someone with no experience in the class. They only go see the numbers (that likely someone else calculated) and not how the skills actually work. I'm sure none of us would be complaining if we were actually at the place where theoretical DPS and mobbing abilities make us out to be.
I still think pierce needs to be reworked though ... maybe raise it to 1250% and lower the multiplier to 1.05. The total damage is 0.73% (or 61% of your range) higher but distributed more evenly (the final hit being 1.27x of the first instead of 2.48x as it is now). I don't know about the rest of you MMs, but I'd gladly trade my ability to break the damage cap so much for more distributed damage. Charging still sucks but I dont think it's ever going away.
On second thought, I didn't account for crits so the base % would probably need to be higher to have comparable total output on average with that multiplier ... maybe 1300% if my assumption that the average gain per hit of crit is 132%, with SE, then it makes the total damage -0.11% of what it is now.
@Stereo above: I don't think that is a valid comparison. There's too many factors that can influence that outcome ... for example if those MMs were partying with magicians during the entire event.
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Beaner - 2010-01-12
Stereo Wrote:Funny how in the guild my NL is in, the top two DPS characters at CKPQ and Zakum are both Marksmen.. I've never heard them complaining. Why is it such a big deal that Corsairs are a bit stronger on paper? You beat the other dozen classes fine.
Remember that 8x exp event? A couple Marksmen were in the top exp gains (aside from Mages, who have a big advantage). I guess it is slow if you never upgrade and you don't party.
must be really high lv MM or low leveled guild. besides the problem with MM is that in paper they seem strong but thay really are not. we depend on snipe to bring our dps up and its extremely unreliable, lousy cooldown, you cant really snipe every 5 secs even if the cooldown works properly (strafing time takes a few milesecs) and since it is static dmg the stronger others get (apples) the weaker we get.
exp gain, it just matter sif you with a mage or not. you can be a shadower and get tons of exp with a mage, or thats how it wa sbefore the exp change, i dont know now since i dont have mage slaves.
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - LiquidSwing - 2010-01-12
I'm assuming these rings stack with the passive crit chances of classes and SE?
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - KaidaTan - 2010-01-12
LiquidSwing Wrote:I'm assuming these rings stack with the passive crit chances of classes and SE?Most likely, yes.
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Alilatias - 2010-01-12
[censored], I derailed the thread.
Draconire Wrote:Hey guys, I'm sorry if this has been posted up before but just to ask. I heard many people mentioning that the Critical Ring is better that Cruel Ring for attackers that already have Critical Shot / Throw. As both of the Rings seems to be similar to be, 1 with 1 WA higher, dealing 20% extra damage with 5% chance, while the other dealing only 10% extra damage but with twice the chance of 10%. May I just ask how is it that it is true for Critical Ring to be better? >< Like is there any calculation done to determine that?
I would guess that the extra 5% critical chance allows for slightly more stable damage, and thus leads to higher average DPM over the cruel ring. However, I really can't number crunch even if my life depended on it.
Now that I think about it, considering how Shadow Partner works, I would think that Night Lords would prioritize higher critical rate over critical damage.
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Lozmaster - 2010-01-12
Alilatias Wrote:I would guess that the extra 5% critical chance allows for slightly more stable damage, and thus leads to higher average DPM over the cruel ring. However, I really can't number crunch even if my life depended on it.
Now that I think about it, considering how Shadow Partner works, I would think that Night Lords would prioritize higher critical rate over critical damage.
Long story short, higher 10% crit + 10% damage is better than 5% crit for 20% damage for all critting classes. Probably for most non-critting too.
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Hotshot - 2010-01-12
Lozmaster Wrote:Long story short, higher 10% crit + 10% damage is better than 5% crit for 20% damage for all critting classes. Probably for most non-critting too.
Short story longer: For magicians without SE they're equal, although depending on whether either of the %s modify the chance to 1 or 2 hit, one could be more useful than the other. For 100% and lower attacks the 5/20 is better, for attacks over 100% the 10/10 is better, but honestly neither of these rings are useful for classes with %-based attacks, except with SE (which the 10/10 ring would be better for). The real advantage of the rings for non-critting classes is the +180 hp, and I'd say warriors gain more from 3str/dex/luk and even int (mp per levelup, hands for maker) than from the 150 hp on top of Lilin's +30.
Short story shorter: 10%/10% ring is better in virtually every case, but it's only the +hp that really matters for non-crit classes, and warriors should stick to Lilin's.
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Kawasari Mimoto - 2010-01-12
As much of a hard-ass as I am when it comes to logical-reasoning within debates, as well as the preferred use of mathematical-computations in stuff like this.. sadly, not everything is as they say on paper. I've been beaten by Corsairs (of course, they were 15x, I was 13x) at Zakum. I've also beaten Corsairs at Zakum that were near my level range, and one's in the lower 140's. I know of Bowmasters and Marksmen that could probably beat my Night Lord though, for sure. There are some incredibly powerful ones out there.
A class is only as good as it's player. Sure, ok, the stats obviously show a Night Lord is powerful. But in a scenario in which the NL-player has very little knowledge and experience at certain bosses, in comparison to a MM that can unleash NEAR AN equivalent output, the MM-player has more knowledge and experience, the MM will surely win.
Math and damage does not count, when the character is being controlled by a person with very little knowledge.
Adventurer rings were nerfed again. - Typhoon - 2010-01-12
If.You.Dont.Like.Your.DPS.Or.Your.EXP.Per.Hour.Go.Make.Another.Class.And.Stop.Complaining.About.Your.Current.Class.
You can't expect them to make a marksmen-only ring that has better stats just so that they will be fairly equal to bowmasters and nightlords do you? If so, you should just go play another game.
(I've played a marksmen btw)