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+--- Thread: Dexless DW vs. dexless NW (/showthread.php?tid=15378)
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - Shady - 2009-08-24
IllegallySane Wrote:At least the Dawn Warrior can take a hit from Pap's 2nd body. Can't say the same for Nightwalkers.There is always a way to die. Don't forget Dark Sight for Pap's second body. And don't forget avoid
NW = Without HB + lag = Dead at Papulatus.
NW = Without HB + Body touch = Dead at Papulatus.
NW = Without HB + Bomb = Dead at Papulatus.
NW = Without HB + Stun + touch = Dead at Papulatus.
Lag can kill anyone. Touching pap's body or a bomb doesn't kill Dawn Warriors.
Dyxanije Wrote:You could also say this about soloing.Very true.
Difference is (according to all of you)
Pap - DW - easy mode
Pap - NW - xtreme mode <--- too hard or what?
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - Dyxanije - 2009-08-24
Shady Wrote:Difference is (according to all of you)
Pap - DW - easy mode
Pap - NW - xtreme mode <--- too hard or what?
Most of us are saying that Night Walkers have survivability issues due to their low HP.
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - Shady - 2009-08-25
Dyxanije Wrote:Most of us are saying that Night Walkers have survivability issues due to their low HP.Let me finish that sentence.
Most of us are saying that Night Walkers have survivability issues due to their low HP, so bossing with them is not as easy. Meaning they suck.
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - Hotshot - 2009-08-26
Shady Wrote:Let me finish that sentence.
Most of us are saying that Night Walkers have survivability issues due to their low HP, so bossing with them is not as easy. Meaning they suck.
What everyone generally means is "most bosses kill nightwalkers in one shot, meaning no amount of survivability or 'skill' will save them. Other bosses (like pap) can cause a lot of cheap/annoying deaths, so maybe it looks like they require more skill, until you lag a little or get stunned at the wrong time (mostly unavoidable) and die. They don't suck, they're just extremely disadvantaged.
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - TøbiasBlack - 2009-08-27
MasPan Wrote:[color="#cc8899"]
You were doing it wrong. I prefer DW, I could care less about STATless. I simply like warriors. Playing a ranged character (other than my Outlaw, who I love - flying backwards seems much more useful to me than forwards) just feels wrong to me.[/COLOR]
heh, funny; to me and my mind (dont you mean minds?), the DK is a ranged class (roar, fury/crusher, yes) AND a close-range as well; mostly the only reason ive stuck to it. =/
id prefer a NW to a DW, as, like i stated above; i detest close range fighting (except with my TB, simply due to invincibility), and NW's are 'dark' aligned. win. dexless matters not to this multipolar.
EDIT::
ya know guys, fun is relative. sure at 120 theres not a whole lot you can do, but cygnus knights main function is to act as a 12attk/24(?)m.attk boost for the parent character. for me, the ranged aspect of a NW and the god-mode (omgwtfhax) of the TB are fun. besides, they arent anywhere NEAR 120 yet, and only 1 of my characters is, and hes only 96 ATM. whats important is not only a jobs potential, but the effort required to attain that greatness. unless, you just leeched to 120, and if any lazy bums did... pineapple out my MS.
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - Shady - 2009-08-28
Hotshot Wrote:What everyone generally means is "most bosses kill nightwalkers in one shot, meaning no amount of survivability or 'skill' will save them. Other bosses (like pap) can cause a lot of cheap/annoying deaths, so maybe it looks like they require more skill, until you lag a little or get stunned at the wrong time (mostly unavoidable) and die. They don't suck, they're just extremely disadvantaged.It's called partying like I said before.
We've got: Pap, Zakum, Horntail, Pianus, Manon and Griffey.
Pap is survivable.
Zakum is not the boss I want to solo at 120.
Horntail is .... y'know
Pianus is 1HKO
Manon and griffey are survivable. However, they're maybe not worth it to hunt them at all.
So Pianus is IMO the only problem, but it's quite easy to find a party for it since it's hunted a lot. It has a crappy respawn time, so you might end up not even finding one.
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - Devil - 2009-08-28
There you go, I'm almost ready for Horntail, 357 Base HP to go! xD
![[Image: maple3534.jpg]](http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/5848/maple3534.jpg)
Darn pap and his 1/1 attacks + no summons...
P.S. Dont you love all those buffs covering Papu's HP? :')
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - Lozmaster - 2009-08-28
Devil Wrote:There you go, I'm almost ready for Horntail, 357 Base HP to go! xD
Have fun with a 40% damage reduction even if you could get the hp.
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - Dusk - 2009-08-28
IllegallySane Wrote:At least the Dawn Warrior can take a hit from Pap's 2nd body. Can't say the same for Nightwalkers.
NW = Without HB + lag = Dead at Papulatus.
NW = Without HB + Body touch = Dead at Papulatus.
NW = Without HB + Bomb = Dead at Papulatus.
NW = Without HB + Stun + touch = Dead at Papulatus.
Lag can kill anyone. Touching pap's body or a bomb doesn't kill Dawn Warriors.
Dude, my Corsair doesn't have enough HP to tank Pap's 2nd body. Doesn't stop me from raping him the moment he spawns.
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - Shady - 2009-08-28
Devil Wrote:There you go, I'm almost ready for Horntail, 357 Base HP to go! xDHot.
Darn pap and his 1/1 attacks + no summons...
P.S. Dont you love all those buffs covering Papu's HP? :')
Dusk Wrote:Dude, my Corsair doesn't have enough HP to tank Pap's 2nd body. Doesn't stop me from raping him the moment he spawns.Word.
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - IllegallySane - 2009-08-28
Dusk Wrote:Dude, my Corsair doesn't have enough HP to tank Pap's 2nd body. Doesn't stop me from raping him the moment he spawns.
I still don't like the idea slight lag will kill you.
"Lag is an interesting phenomenon. It's said that the ancient Titans of Uldaman wrote in their tablets: 'Many powerful spells we have seen, some we have known ourselves, some epic cooking recipes have we stored in our giant pouches, but none as powerful, none as utterly devastating as lagz0r.'"
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - Dusk - 2009-08-28
IllegallySane Wrote:I still don't like the idea slight lag will kill you.
"Lag is an interesting phenomenon. It's said that the ancient Titans of Uldaman wrote in their tablets: 'Many powerful spells we have seen, some we have known ourselves, some epic cooking recipes have we stored in our giant pouches, but none as powerful, none as utterly devastating as lagz0r.'"
I don't like the idea that you rate classes based on how well they perform when they're lagging. Is that why you HP wash your Bucc? I've seen warriors die from lag, so it's not like you can escape lag by being able to take a hit. HP should only be an issue when it's not possible to avoid the attack.
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - IllegallySane - 2009-08-28
Dusk Wrote:I don't like the idea that you rate classes based on how well they perform when they're lagging. Is that why you HP wash your Bucc? I've seen warriors die from lag, so it's not like you can escape lag by being able to take a hit. HP should only be an issue when it's not possible to avoid the attack.
I never rated based on lag. I'm saying on the OFF-CHANCE there is a lag spike, who's going to survive the Pap attack.
So every warrior who HP washes fear lag? I guess every single Dark Knight out there is a total wussy. oh wait, I guess every warrior is a wuss because their HP pool is so high.
No, I HP wash because I want to go all out on my character. I planned since the beginning that my Pirate will be my final character that I will seriously play (to 200). Because of that, I stuck with him being DEXless and I aim to have around 16-18k HP by level 200. If that is wrong to do because it implies I fear lagz0rs, then that is illogical. I've had more than a dozen lag related deaths. I GUESS I SHOULD HP WASH MORE TO ESCAPE THIS PROBLEM.
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - Stereo - 2009-08-28
TBH I started playing my Hermit because I was lagging and still wanted to play.
On average, it takes longer for the NL to get hit to death than the Paladin... and since I'm not standing next to the enemy, it's also easier to avoid that situation.
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - Dusk - 2009-08-28
IllegallySane Wrote:I never rated based on lag. I'm saying on the OFF-CHANCE there is a lag spike, who's going to survive the Pap attack.
So every warrior who HP washes fear lag? I guess every single Dark Knight out there is a total wussy. oh wait, I guess every warrior is a wuss because their HP pool is so high.
No, I HP wash because I want to go all out on my character. I planned since the beginning that my Pirate will be my final character that I will seriously play (to 200). Because of that, I stuck with him being DEXless and I aim to have around 16-18k HP by level 200. If that is wrong to do because it implies I fear lagz0rs, then that is illogical. I've had more than a dozen lag related deaths. I GUESS I SHOULD HP WASH MORE TO ESCAPE THIS PROBLEM.
Exactly - even with 30k HP you can still be killed by lag. So "lol NW die if they lag" is a stupid thing to say.
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - IllegallySane - 2009-08-28
Dusk Wrote:Exactly - even with 30k HP you can still be killed by lag. So "lol NW die if they lag" is a stupid thing to say.
Being killed in one hit at 100% HP because of lag is stupid, because for those with bad internet it really defeats the purpose of playing ranged characters. Melee characters get the luxury of getting a second or two more time to survive.
Wait, why are we going off-topic here? We are talking about NW vs DW, not Adventurer classes. Obviously any Adventurer, at a high enough level, can take two hits from Pap. Cygnus Knights are forced to be stuck at 120 for bossing, which does not leave a lot of room to HP wash if they want to, and even if they want to HP wash it seems like a complete waste when the main purpose of the Cygnus Knight is powering up the parent class. An Adventurer is better at bossing in the long run; everyone knows that.
Level 120 Nightwalkers will die in one hit from Pap at the cost of dealing loads of damage. 120 Dawn Warriors can handle 2-3 hits from Pap, YET they deal monstrous damage as well thanks to Brandish in combination with both Combos, a Soul Charge, and a Red Katana speed weapon. When the lag spike hits, the Nightwalker is more likely to die. HOWEVER, a Dawn Warrior spits on the Nightwalkers squishiness as they just keep on dealing 20-30k Brandishs. That's the gist of my argument. Nothing more, nothing less.
*With an Apple Dawn Warriors are capable of 30-50k Brandishes.
Nightwalkers are mechanically inferior to Dawn Warriors. Want better examples?
If Nightwalkers are the Chun-Li/Cammy, Dawn Warriors are the Akuma.
If Night Walkers are Crono from Chrono Trigger, Dawn Warriors are end-game Robo.
If Night Walkers are the Rogues from WoW, Dawn Warriors are the Death Knights.
If Night Walkers are the Sword Masters from Fire Emblem, Dawn Warriors are Ike.
If Night Walkers are the Blazikens, Dawn Warriors are the Garchomps.
IF NIGHT WALKERS ARE THE FRAGILER SPEEDSTERS, DAWN WARRIORS ARE THE LIGHTNING BRUISERS
Mechanically, Dawn Warriors are superior to Nightwalkers because they only lose out a little damage to make up for overall awesomeness. Nightwalkers are good. Dawn Warriors are just better.
-Mobility? Nightwalkers have Flash Jump. Dawn Warriors have a Soul version.
-Ranged attacks? Nightwalkers have Triple Throw/Avenger. Dawn Warriors have Brandish/Soul Driver (and Soul Driver hits 8 enemies instead of 6)
-Survivability? Average Nightwalkers aren't going to handle anything higher than a 3.5k-4k hit. Dawn Warriors can take 8k+ hits.
-Power Boosts? Nightwalkers have Shadow Partner and require Sharp Eyes to be uber. Dawn Warriors have Combo, Advanced Combo, and Soul Charge; Sharp Eyes is not needed for them to rock.
-Melee attacks? Nightwalkers. What melee attacks? Vampire?? Poison Sling? Dawn Warriors have Brandish.
-Mob power? Nightwalkers have a weak Avenger. Dawn Warriors rip things apart with Brandish, and massive mobs with Soul Driver.
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - Dusk - 2009-08-29
I make no argument that NWs are better than DWs, but I still don't believe dying in one hit because you lag a lot is a disadvantage at all.
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - Cyanne - 2009-08-29
Just put AP into hp as you approach 120, you only have a couple levels left to train anyways and aren't going to do much at bosses while dead. I did this with my striker, and it was great. Being able to take zakum body bumps without HB is awesome. You can use your main character for actual bossing, unless you play your cygnus as your main.
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - IllegallySane - 2009-08-29
Dusk Wrote:I make no argument that NWs are better than DWs, but I still don't believe dying in one hit because you lag a lot is a disadvantage at all.
It is to me. It also is a disadvantage for bossing when the boss deals unavoidable damage that requires HP washing to live through. Horntail is an average example because number crunching proved without HP washing the average character would just be able to handle a Horntail hit at nearly level 200. Pink Bean is a ridiculous example (statue damage of course) because it needs unfunny levels of HP washing the the brink about 7k base HP is needed to handle the statue damage safely.
Dexless DW vs. dexless NW - Dusk - 2009-08-29
IllegallySane Wrote:It is to me. It also is a disadvantage for bossing when the boss deals unavoidable damage that requires HP washing to live through. Horntail is an average example because number crunching proved without HP washing the average character would just be able to handle a Horntail hit at nearly level 200. Pink Bean is a ridiculous example (statue damage of course) because it needs unfunny levels of HP washing the the brink about 7k base HP is needed to handle the statue damage safely.
How is that related? You can't get through HT without enough HP to tank a hit. You're saying that NWs have trouble with Pap because they can't take a hit.