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+---- Thread: Ask a Bowman Thread. (/showthread.php?tid=392)
Ask a Bowman Thread. - Fumni - 2009-03-15
Wow such an anti-thrust poll :f6:
Frankly, after playing almost 2 years on my bishop, the less buttons pressed, the better. I only have one key left free on my bishop (the "=" key, and it feels like being on missile command) and I didn't even max focus on my x-bow. So, speed pills are out of the question.
I would like to know more about Mortal Blow, though. I know one person with it maxed and he says "eh," and another with 5 Mortal Blow, and he never really says much about it. I heard it works better for Bowmasters, but obviously I can't confirm this through experience.
Again, thanks for all the help guys.
Ask a Bowman Thread. - Lifis - 2009-03-15
Definitely max Mortal Blow. It's amazing.
I can see why you want a bit of thrust though. Here's what I did for my 3rd job build:
30 Strafe
30 AE
15 Puppet (More than that is rarely necessary)
29 Eagle
20 Mortal Blow
21 blizzard
6 Thrust
Although considering how Frostprey replaces Eagle, you'd probably be better off just leaving Eagle at a lower level and using the extra points on Thrust.
Ask a Bowman Thread. - Beaner - 2009-03-16
id go 21 eagle and 18 puppet with rest in thrust
Ask a Bowman Thread. - KaidaTan - 2009-03-16
I think if I were a Sniper, I'd go with this build.
30 Strafe
30 AE
20 Puppet
15 Eagle
20 Mortal Blow
21 Blizzard
15 Thrust
I really like Thrust and I think it's more than worth milking every point you can from Eagle for it. As a Bowmaster, MB is definitely a little more useful for me because of Storm of Mortal Blow. But I don't think I'd ever go a day without it. Snipers would end up using it nearly as much anyway.
Also I'm jealous of Frostprey. Gib.
Ask a Bowman Thread. - FelixTM - 2009-03-16
KaidaTan Wrote:I think if I were a Sniper, I'd go with this build.
30 Strafe
30 AE
20 Puppet
15 Eagle
20 Mortal Blow
21 Blizzard
15 Thrust
I really like Thrust and I think it's more than worth milking every point you can from Eagle for it. As a Bowmaster, MB is definitely a little more useful for me because of Storm of Mortal Blow. But I don't think I'd ever go a day without it. Snipers would end up using it nearly as much anyway.
I agree with this man completely. I'd use that build if I made a Sniper, too.
Eagle seems really pointless for Snipers. Even when I was a Ranger, I almost never used my Hawk. Snipers have even less use for their Eagle since they can freeze. In 4th job, I actually started using my Hawk because of Newties (remember the early days of Leafre when people did Newt parties without an ultimate being spammed? lol), but once I moved up to Skeles, I went back to not even carrying Summoning Stones with me... I think Hawk is nearly worthless, and I think Eagle is completely worthless.
I've always been a huge supporter for both Thrust and Mortal Blow. Mortal Blow is an absolute must-max, in my eyes. Thrust should be 10+. I don't see how passive Speed can ever be bad, despite the example Dusk used (I don't agree, but then again he also doesn't see the glory of MB). I need to be moving fast. I can't be on my Mount every possible second. For me, there is no time where I can accept being slow. Mortal Blow is simply god-tier. It's my favorite skill from 3rd job (save for Puppet, maybe). Obviously it's better for Bowmasters because we get to abuse the Hurricane + MB trick, which I think is incredible. Regardless, MB is such a vast improvement over bow-whacking that I feel it's just as important for Marksman to max it.
Ask a Bowman Thread. - Cyanne - 2009-03-16
I prefer 21 eagle and 9 thrust, personally. If you include a speed pill and mark of naricain, which is quickly becoming readily affordable, that bumps you up to 133 speed with just nine points in thrust. Speed on the weapon or bottom dex scrolls can easily cover the last 7 speed, but if those aren't options, 30% overall dex and 30% shoe jump scrolls also give 1 speed each, which should most likely cover at least enough to bump speed up to 137+ (unless you have facestompers, in which case you're rich enough to MTS pet equipment). 21 eagle ups stunning rate to 95%, up from 15 eagle's 88%, which is pretty significant. Eagle is useful in 3rd job and when hunting anywhere frostprey can't freeze, like the ice-resistant monsters in time temple, crimson guardians, nightshadows, etc.
Ask a Bowman Thread. - KaidaTan - 2009-03-16
I can easily see how a 21+ Hawk/Eagle build could be argued back in the days before 4th job. Goby parties were pretty much all there was, and Hawk/Eagle was necessary to stun houses and bone fish. But nowadays there's little use for these birds because there's so many alternatives now. You can easily train at Gryphens, nearly all the monsters in the pure spawn maps in CWK, and Newties nowadays: all of which don't require any Hawk/Eagle.
And if you're about to say how Newties does need Hawk/Eagle, let me remind you that you can easily stand out of the range of Newties and still snipe both of the most commonly sniped Newties. For Marksmen, I see no reason not to go 15 Eagle.
Felix, we should have gay sex now. Get over here you.
Ask a Bowman Thread. - JoeTang - 2009-03-16
If you want your drops, you're gonna want enough Hawk to stun well.
Ask a Bowman Thread. - FelixTM - 2009-03-16
KaidaTan Wrote:I can easily see how a 21+ Hawk/Eagle build could be argued back in the days before 4th job. Goby parties were pretty much all there was, and Hawk/Eagle was necessary to stun houses and bone fish. But nowadays there's little use for these birds because there's so many alternatives now. You can easily train at Gryphens, nearly all the monsters in the pure spawn maps in CWK, and Newties nowadays: all of which don't require any Hawk/Eagle.
Felix, we should have gay sex now. Get over here you.
Yeah, it did make more sense back in the good ol' days. The only reason I actually did end up with near-max Hawk is because of how much everyone said it was NECESSARY. I trained at Squids from 86-121, though. I never understood how Hawk was important. haha The weirdos I saw using it during SQPTs made me laugh. I'm like, Bro...man up. I actually hated how useful Hawk was during JNPTs because I would have been stupid not to use it. It sucked having to worry about Summoning Stones! I'm not a Hermit, DANGIT.
Regardless, he's right. With all the new easy modo training spots and LEECHAN going on nowadays, Hawk/Eagle are even more pointless.
Agreed. Any position preference?
Ask a Bowman Thread. - Dusk - 2009-03-16
@Felix: I actually regret my 12 MB/29 Hawk build, if I went back I'd max MB and drop Hawk to 21. I didn't realize how useless Hawk was before ._.
I like MB, but I hate when it activates. Does that make sense at all? I hate when a single arrow come out, interrupting my attacks, but I'm glad that it exists, because it's even more annoying to swing at things.
And passive speed doesn't bother you because you're not a jump shot whore like I am. I dislike being rooted to the ground when attacking. Jumping back and forth + speed + minimum range = running into things. B> jump-Hurricane
Edit: Also, to anyone else who was a Ranger/Sniper back in the day when everyone trained in Aqua, did anyone else hate having Haste in Aqua? I was at Squids/Gobies from level 80 to 108, and I know I right-clicked the hell out of that buff, because it threw off my jump-shoot timing. I'd be able to shoot like twice, jump, shoot again, and then miss the second shot.
Ask a Bowman Thread. - JoeTang - 2009-03-16
Dusk Wrote:@Felix: I actually regret my 12 MB/29 Hawk build, if I went back I'd max MB and drop Hawk to 21. I didn't realize how useless Hawk was before ._.
I like MB, but I hate when it activates. Does that make sense at all? I hate when a single arrow come out, interrupting my attacks, but I'm glad that it exists, because it's even more annoying to swing at things.
And passive speed doesn't bother you because you're not a jump shot whore like I am. I dislike being rooted to the ground when attacking. Jumping back and forth + speed + minimum range = running into things. B> jump-Hurricane
Edit: Also, to anyone else who was a Ranger/Sniper back in the day when everyone trained in Aqua, did anyone else hate having Haste in Aqua? I was at Squids/Gobies from level 80 to 108, and I know I right-clicked the hell out of that buff, because it threw off my jump-shoot timing. I'd be able to shoot like twice, jump, shoot again, and then miss the second shot.
pineapple, every time I had a Hermit in my PT, I'd tell him to pineapple off and stop Hasting or I'd expel and KS. One time, I was handling the top Goby house in Squid I. It blows up, I Inferno, Puppet, about to move forward to Rain. Hermit jumps up, Hastes me and Avengers the mob. Backs up, and they close in. I have to jump up to dodge, and relure them, and I fucking zoom to the top of the map. Well, I would have had I not died, jumping into a Squid on the way up.
Hate having to jump so high underwater like that. I like the speed though, but that's not worth the jump.
Ask a Bowman Thread. - KaidaTan - 2009-03-16
Dusk Wrote:And passive speed doesn't bother you because you're not a jump shot whore like I am. I dislike being rooted to the ground when attacking. Jumping back and forth + speed + minimum range = running into things. B> jump-Hurricane
Edit: Also, to anyone else who was a Ranger/Sniper back in the day when everyone trained in Aqua, did anyone else hate having Haste in Aqua? I was at Squids/Gobies from level 80 to 108, and I know I right-clicked the hell out of that buff, because it threw off my jump-shoot timing. I'd be able to shoot like twice, jump, shoot again, and then miss the second shot.
O contrare, I try to find every way I can to incorporate jump-shooting into my game. Normally I can only jump-shoot over gaps because step-shooting is more efficient when clearing the bottom floor of skelegons, but with SI that all changes. When you get SI, Strafe is actually fast enough that you have absolutely no lag when you hit the ground. So when I get to the bottom floor, I'm just jump-shooting across the entire thing. Usually I don't even have to stop. But yes, I can control my jump-shooting even with my nearly maxed speed. To be fair, I have Hurricane to supplement it though.
And to your edit, no I never did. In fact, I was maxing thrust while I was at Gobies. There's nothing wrong with extra mobility, it really just means you can get around faster. There were so few instances where I needed to swim up and down while Strafing, which is probably the situation you're thinking of where speed would be most detrimental.
And question: why did all the Rangers use Inferno to lure the gobies? I never understood that. They're strong to fire, and Inferno isn't very strong to begin with. All I ever did was Strafe close to the goby houses and AR immediately. I don't think they got away any more than they would have if I had started with Inferno.
EDIT: I know this is somewhat unrelated, but I've actually been working on my jump-down-Strafe lately. I've found that if you hold forward and down and then try to jumpshoot, you can jump-down-Strafe perfectly every time. So I've been trying to use it on the last monster on a platform before I go down. It's pretty hard to use though because I usually end up firing too many or too few arrows with Hurricane before jumping down. It would be really useful for just about any other class though. Especially Marksman.
Ask a Bowman Thread. - Findings - 2009-03-16
Dusk Wrote:Edit: Also, to anyone else who was a Ranger/Sniper back in the day when everyone trained in Aqua, did anyone else hate having Haste in Aqua? I was at Squids/Gobies from level 80 to 108, and I know I right-clicked the hell out of that buff, because it threw off my jump-shoot timing. I'd be able to shoot like twice, jump, shoot again, and then miss the second shot.
It depends on which spot you are doing. At gobies, I always turned it off if I was doing above bottom or top, but on flat spots with little jumping going on like middle or bottom, it was nice. At squids, I turned it off regardless of where I was. Since a lot of shooting is done in the water, off of the platform, it really fucks you up there.
KaidaTan Wrote:And question: why did all the Rangers use Inferno to lure the gobies? I never understood that. They're strong to fire, and Inferno isn't very strong to begin with. All I ever did was Strafe close to the goby houses and AR immediately. I don't think they got away any more than they would have if I had started with Inferno.
Yes, Inferno/Puppet were an unnecessary precaution that only scrubs used. Everyone that learned how to train there stopped doing it eventually. No one used it to do damage of course, just to make absolutely sure that they wouldn't be hit by any of the gobies, even though you can achieve the same thing just about every time with Rain alone.
Ask a Bowman Thread. - Kevvl - 2009-03-16
KaidaTan Wrote:And question: why did all the Rangers use Inferno to lure the gobies? I never understood that. They're strong to fire, and Inferno isn't very strong to begin with. All I ever did was Strafe close to the goby houses and AR immediately. I don't think they got away any more than they would have if I had started with Inferno.Kinda hard to use the Pure AR tactic when in a party. Puppet is almost required because of how the gobies like to fly everywhere, you can't keep a uniform mob when other people are on the map.
Heck, I'm still wondering why a lot of Snipers refuse to use the Pure-AE tactic. Blizzard sucks for damage, they should be doing what Rangers do.
Ask a Bowman Thread. - Beaner - 2009-03-16
Kevvl Wrote:Kinda hard to use the Pure AR tactic when in a party. Puppet is almost required because of how the gobies like to fly everywhere, you can't keep a uniform mob when other people are on the map.
Heck, I'm still wondering why a lot of Snipers refuse to use the Pure-AE tactic. Blizzard sucks for damage, they should be doing what Rangers do.
we give i a little dmg for tons of control, if you ever been at the bottom of a gobie party you know how those frackers like to fly up as soon as the house breaks. the blizzard will keep them within range and get them killed.
when soloing, the dmg isnt as crappy as you think, i remember at some point it took me 1 blizzard and 2 AE to kill the mob, or 3 AR. so it was the same, however with blizzard it was 100% profit. hell i remember doing 1 hour of gobies with 10 hp pots.
blizzard is awesome, stable and doesnt suck as much as you want to think. it gives snipers the mob control MM are "famous" for early on. now i agree some people abuse it and spam it or use it on monsters they can 2-3 hit, now that is a waste.
Ask a Bowman Thread. - Kevvl - 2009-03-16
Aya, by all means Blizzard is awesome. I'm a Marksman, I know its uses.
But, I have just as much control with pure AE. I never get hit using the pure AE method. =P
Ask a Bowman Thread. - Dusk - 2009-03-16
Findings Wrote:It depends on which spot you are doing. At gobies, I always turned it off if I was doing above bottom or top, but on flat spots with little jumping going on like middle or bottom, it was nice. At squids, I turned it off regardless of where I was. Since a lot of shooting is done in the water, off of the platform, it really pineapples you up there.
Yes, Inferno/Puppet were an unnecessary precaution that only scrubs used. Everyone that learned how to train there stopped doing it eventually. No one used it to do damage of course, just to make absolutely sure that they wouldn't be hit by any of the gobies, even though you can achieve the same thing just about every time with Rain alone.
sigh- I used Inferno for damage for the first few levels at Gobies, because maxed Inferno did more damage than my level 1 Arrow Rain, haha.
Still trained almost as fast. It doesn't matter how fast you kill the individual Gobies, really. Crusaders one hit them with Coma and don't receive significantly higher exp rates than archers. I have seen a certain Basiler advocate a Flamethrower build for Outlaws to train at Gobies, even though Flamethrower gets a full half damage penalty from Gobies as opposed to Inferno's 25%.
Ask a Bowman Thread. - Findings - 2009-03-16
Dusk Wrote:sigh- I used Inferno for damage for the first few levels at Gobies, because maxed Inferno did more damage than my level 1 Arrow Rain, haha.
Still trained almost as fast. It doesn't matter how fast you kill the individual Gobies, really. Crusaders one hit them with Coma and don't receive significantly higher exp rates than archers. I have seen a certain Basiler advocate a Flamethrower build for Outlaws to train at Gobies, even though Flamethrower gets a full half damage penalty from Gobies as opposed to Inferno's 25%.
My average resistant Inferno damage is 71% of what my Arrow Rain damage is. I don't think you can call a 29% decrease in killing speed "almost as fast." That is at least one more attack needed to kill.
Everyone that was playing around the time when gobies were the best things knows that Crusaders got more EXP per hour than any other class. I had both a Ranger and a Crusader at the time, and I know from first hand experience that this is true. How fast you kill the gobies is the ONLY thing that matters aside from opening the house before it can WDEF up, which won't be any problem if you are a Crusader capable of 1HKOing with Coma, or have Hawk. There was a reason that if you went into a Goby map before 4th job came out that the first person you would mostly likely see would be a Crusader at the top.
Ask a Bowman Thread. - Itay - 2009-03-23
So, Now with the new Crimson Guardians training is slightly slower and alot more dangerous. But is it still possible? I think so.. The new map layout isn't too bad aswell, if you know how to behave with Puppet.
The "Mace" attack that used to hit 5100 max (with 431 weapon def) does about 1900 max (with 323 weapon def) and they use it MUCH more often.
Now, the "Stab" attack attack that used to hit about 2000 max (with 431 weapon def), is now buffed. Some say they switched the numbers, but no, it can't be... I leveled and went to CG's, and I got 3 results with the stab attack: 4726, 4702 and 4792. (I have 323 weapon def now, switched from clean htp to a MoN, Now I have 4794 hp, yayfor2hp!)
Therefore, I don't think they switched the attacks completely. I have 108 less defense at the moment and they hit me ~400 less than the Mace attack before the patch. What do you guys think? Possible?
Ask a Bowman Thread. - Findings - 2009-03-23
The damage from the sword attack has a pretty wide range. I've been hit for 4.7-5k, though it is on the lower end usually. It was the same way with the mace, you'd think you were safe and all of a sudden you'd be dead. I'm pretty sure they just switched them. If the numbers were changed at all, they weren't changed much.