White Wrote:I didn't say it was a stationary boss, I said that PB is pinned to the right and the ranged classes stand in a certain spot, which is where you can, and I always see, Dark Flare planted. Also, we apparently have different ideas of spammed attacks. HT and CHT do spam attacks in my experience and opinion.

White Wrote:More feistiness. I don't particularly appreciate the bit at the end. Nevertheless, it appears that you're arguing both. You want BOTH strong skills AND great synergy. One without the other is a great source of frustration. Choose a new class that you feel fulfills your wants, instead of whining. Be proactive.

White Wrote:Each class has pros and cons, that should be mutually agreeable. NL's have lots of damage, and less synergy. Go play a Shad, more synergy but notably worse damage. Or better yet, play a Bucc, lots of synergy and abysmal damage.

White Wrote:I didn't say 'your class should now suck'. I don't think anyone did. Who said that? Quotes please. If you look at all the posts i've made, you'll notice that none of them say NL's will or do suck. I've said several times that NL's are plenty strong enough, and that they have useless skills, and that i'm totally supportive of NL's getting more skills that enhance their synergy, as long as it's done in a way that doesn't amplify their damage, because that aspect of NL's is fine as in.

ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:You failed to grasp the concept I presented. Here, I'll present it once again. The fact that PB, planted or not, is a non-stationary boss. Yes, Dark Flare will work if he's within range and kept within that range. However, in the event that is impossible due to lack of rushers, movement skills, etc. Dark Flare retains its inability to function the moment PB is outside of range.

ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:I didn't mention a single word of needing the class to be strong. In fact, I was one of the ones against it. However, you asked what defined a good class. I responded a class that maintains synergy within itself, not a class full of mish mash skills that do not compliment each other. Instead, you twisted my argument (and your own) to a point where you concluded I need Night Lords to be a class with perfect synergy with high-end damage.

ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:Furthermore, a class that has good synergy with itself doesn't necessarily make it strong. A class that has good synergy with itself means its skills don't become obsolete nor will it have filler skills with little to no functionality. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:Dealing lots of damage (which Night Lords do not have) does not warrant a lack of synergy. That's just bad game design. And I've said it before, I'll say it again until you can finally grasp the concept. A class with good synergy within its skills does not mean it will deal massive amounts of damage.

ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:Also, Shadowers are hardly weak. In fact, they hold positions at the top of the charts. However, this isn't the topic of discussion.

ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:Sure, look here.

Because we've had the luxury of damage for 6-8 years, you insinuated that we no longer deserve it. Unless you mean something else by that statement, clear it up.

ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:Furthermore, I'm not frustrated at the class (otherwise, I'd have left it long ago). However, the presented items of notice I've brought to light are issues, problems, and downfalls to the class I've known long ago and realize could have been done better. What I've shown to you were faults in why the skills don't work well with each other. What you've shown in your responses is that so long as they do damage (crap damage or non-crap damage), they don't need synergy, and under the condition that damage is dealt, it's considered to be a good skill. That's the problem.

White Wrote:To the first part, that's not what i'm reading when I read what Dizzy has been typing. I'm not sensing that Dizzy is casually interested in Nexon making NL's a bit more enjoyable to play. I'm instead reading that Dizzy is frustrated with lots of useless skills and (catch word coming) more 'synergy', which I can only assume to mean more skills that work together and more damage buffing skills or skills that do more damage straight up. To which i've been replying that skills working together is completely reasonable and overdue, while more damage is not necessary as NL's already do top notch dpm at bosses anyway.

White Wrote:Finally, I haven't whined about NL's getting a damage boost. How exactly would you say i'm, "whining about Night Lords getting any sort of damage boost when they get rebalanced"? I haven't.

White Wrote:I've expressed a fairly strong disinterest in seeing an improvement in their damage dealing capabilities, but I haven't dwelled on that for more than a couple of sentences at most at a time.

MetaSeraphim Wrote:So you're over reading into a person's comment and telling them what they're saying because of your feeling?

MetaSeraphim Wrote:You have whined about any chance of Night Lords getting a damage boost, that is what I meant by my comment and you even admitted that you did here.

White Wrote:Ok, that's true, if PB moves outside the range of Dark Flare, then Dark Flare won't do damage to it. All this discussion about the skill has me now confused, what is the issue you're bringing up? That because other classes don't get hit for lots of damage all the time, Dark Flare isn't a very useful skill? I don't think the intention of Dark Flare was to do amazing damage. In fact, based on the skill chart, since it does 1300% damage, I think Nexon knew that players wouldn't be taking lots of damage and thus the skill would need to have a high percent to even be implemented.

White Wrote:Considering NL's already have high end damage, improving synergy to the point it appears you want it, would make a class that would be heads over other all other classes.

White Wrote:NL's do, in fact, have good damage. When three different NL's that I boss with are hitting over 300k's on their bottom stars on bosses that have 60% (!!!!!) PDR, I would definitely claim they have good damage. I routinely see NL's at lower tier bosses like zak or scar/targa that do more damage than similarly funded other classes (any). I assure you, NL's do have good damage. Perhaps you are forgetting to factor in their ability to just not take damage, and thus not have to deal with status ailments that land due to getting hit (think about those pillars that fall in zak and stun, or the lightning that strikes and causes seal at zak, or the purple tornado at grandpa that seals). If you dodge those hits, you don't need to possibly repot (slow down dpm), and especially hit that all-cure button which isn't usable until after the seal icon shows up over your head (frustrating at ht especially).

White Wrote:If I said that I considered Dark Flare to be a good skill (I don't remember, don't think so though) then that was a mistake. I see now that Dark Flare is not a good skill. It's a usable skill. It's not a bad skill. But it's not a good skill either. It, like many many many other skills in this game, are simple passable and augment the class but are nothing superb.

As for skills that do damage not needing synergy, I don't think I said that. I believe I said something similar that you have now twisted.

ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:No, this portion of the argument I've presented this whole time isn't about the "usefulness" of Dark Flare (which you happen to be thinking it's about). This potion of the argument is that Dark Flare doesn't work well in conjunction with the other aspects of the NL class, the majority of other classes, and doesn't work well with the nature of the boss itself.

ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:How many times do I need to repeat it. Having high end damage doesn't excuse NL's from having skills that compliment each other.

ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:300k's on bosses with 60% PDRate with just NL buffs. I've went and checked the math. NL's would need 300-ish W.ATK with 21% gear on everything tier 3, 14% gear on tier 2's, and being level 200 Dexless to reach 295,807 damage on a maximum star. That's not the class being strong. That's the players playing those NL's having lots of high-end gear. However, that's a discussion for another time.

White Wrote:Dark Flare is a party skill. That out of the way, I don't see why you say it doesn't work well w/ other aspects of the NL class. It doesn't actually have anything to do with the NL class at all. It's completely reliant on the other people in the party for it to do damage. Are you saying that the skill itself shouldn't be in the NL skillbook because it doesn't really fit well with the supposed lore of the class? As for it not working well with the majority of other classes, I can only chalk that up to a misunderstanding of the skill on your part. The purpose of the skill is to do damage is it not? If it accomplishes that goal, i'm unsure where the problem lies. As for bosses, lemme go through the main ones that come to my mind at 4am in the morning. HT/CHT, stationary, irrelevant. Zak/Czak, stationary, irrelevant. PB, always pinned so for all practical purposes, stationary and irrelevant, Statues are stationary. Toad, stationary and irrelevant. Guard Ani, not stationary, somewhat relevant. Grandpa, best solo'd but if he's not solo'd, he's pinned and thus like PB, essentially stationary and irrelevant. Krexel, stationary and irrelevant. Scar/Targ, just like PB unless players are goofing around hitting it back and forth, in which case optimal damage isn't a priority and thus Dark Flare isn't really a relevant thing. Anego, exactly like grandpa. The only boss I consider that your claim gives credence to is Van Leon, but I can't really address that as i've never actually gone to Van Leon. Pap, Crow, CWKPQ, Pianus, these are all bosses that are either best soloed, pinned or stationary.

White Wrote:Hopefully not any more. How many times do I need to repeat that i'm fully supportive of NL's getting their skills fixed up so that they don't have as many useless ones, and i'm totally on board with more synergy for the class? My problem has never been with synergy for NL's. It has merely been me addressing my concern that in fixing up skills to have more synergy, more damage will be added which I don't feel is necessary as NL's are already strong.

White Wrote:SE of course, echo usually, mw30 is standard, and stews or apples, not sure which.

Those buffs are to be expected in a run of only 180+ characters.

Quote:Dark Flare. It's a skill that gets more useless as your party is stronger, or your avoid increases. It's also a stationary skill while you are supposed to be a mainly moveable class.

Shadow Web. It's a skill used to keep monsters stopped until they get hit. Yet your only mobbing skill has a small enough range, so you need the monsters to always move to you so they get closer to each other.

Shadow meso. A skill that acts just like another you have, same benefits, mainly, only the other will always be stronger.

Shadow stars. A skill that makes Shadow javelin not activate critical hits, or recharge stars, ever. Only makes the usage of stars slower, by design, it fits the class considering how the ammo works.

Venom. A passive skill that, even adding additional damage, it will do less than the other thief branches, as the attack from the stars are not counted towards the formula.

Meso up. A skill that is automatically useless if a monster doesn't drop mesos, and that only contributes to the aftermatch, only if the person dealing the final blow has the buff active.

Taunt. Shared with shadowers. A skill that lets you get more exp and drops by sacrificing the time for an attack or two (not sure on the timing, may even take the time of 3, even), making it be more profitable to just kill faster, and move to a different target. The potential to help a teammate get more exp is mitigated by the fact you just loose exp yourself, and even contribute less to the party by killing slower. Additionally, completely useless on bosses.

Ninja ambush is a DoT skill that takes more time to cast than any other offensive skill, deals less damage overall than a single avenger attack, and way less range.

Quote:Puppet is stationary, tricks enemies and monsters so that you are safer, and attacks consistent damage depending of your range. Keeps the (now less) stationary nature of bowmen's attacks.

Arrow bomb stuns monsters on a small area, dealing damage, and will keep them stunned even after attacking them. It has the same range as shadow web, only you can cast it from far.

Spirit link is a skill that, with a summon out, will make the summon attack while you get benefits from it. The previous summon's stunning abilities can be replaced by other skills, even if not as effective.

Spirit arrows lets you have unlimited stars without ever running out. If you choose to have a damage boost, you can use attack arrows until they run out, then back to your infinite supply. It does not interfere with any other skill, not even evasion boost, that grants a 100% critical bonus for a second everytime you dodge an attack, rewarding you for higher avoid equipment or skills.

Advanced final attack is a skill that, depending on what kind of attack you are using, you can deal more or less extra hits, making a combo with Hurricane be perfect.

Sharp eyes is a skill that lets you and your whole party deal additional damage depending on their critical rates to maximize that advantage, taking party administration at raids to have a new depth.

Concentration is a skill that adds a buff to weapon attack, while adding an extra saving to the mp used per skill, lowering pot use whatever the kind of potion is, even % based recovery ones.

Inferno is a DoT skill that gets an advanced version on 4th job, that lasts a long time and works for enough time to use other attacks while it lasts, working better on stationary bosses, to have an easy target to keep the fire at.

cronnoponno Wrote:Who said taunt is useless for NL's? I saw a damned good video back then where a NL had easily put it into it's playstyle, it even looked more natural than shadower's using it. However, I think it should work on boss monsters.

Alloy Wrote:White. Just so you stop all your nonsense and leave all this stupid discussion.

One of the following is good game design, the other is poor game design. Try to pick what is what.

Alloy Wrote:Dark Flare. It's a skill that gets more useless as your party is stronger, or your avoid increases. It's also a stationary skill while you are supposed to be a mainly moveable class.

ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:Dark Flare has everything to do with NL's and the class itself. The fact it's a party skill doesn't automatically exclude NL's from that aspect. However, despite it being a party skill, I've already proven in this post that it lacks synergy with other classes in addition to itself. While the purpose of the skill is to do damage, the amount of damage it produces is reduced by the fact that many classes have damage mitigation skills or high avoid (which reduces its ability to deal damage period). This is negative synergy.

Alloy Wrote:Shadow Web. It's a skill used to keep monsters stopped until they get hit. Yet your only mobbing skill has a small enough range, so you need the monsters to always move to you so they get closer to each other.

Alloy Wrote:Shadow stars. A skill that makes Shadow javelin not activate critical hits, or recharge stars, ever. Only makes the usage of stars slower, by design, it fits the class considering how the ammo works.

Alloy Wrote:Venom. A passive skill that, even adding additional damage, it will do less than the other thief branches, as the attack from the stars are not counted towards the formula.

Alloy Wrote:Meso up. A skill that is automatically useless if a monster doesn't drop mesos, and that only contributes to the aftermatch, only if the person dealing the final blow has the buff active.

Alloy Wrote:Taunt. Shared with shadowers. A skill that lets you get more exp and drops by sacrificing the time for an attack or two (not sure on the timing, may even take the time of 3, even), making it be more profitable to just kill faster, and move to a different target. The potential to help a teammate get more exp is mitigated by the fact you just loose exp yourself, and even contribute less to the party by killing slower. Additionally, completely useless on bosses.

Alloy Wrote:Ninja ambush is a DoT skill that takes more time to cast than any other offensive skill, deals less damage overall than a single avenger attack, and way less range.

Alloy Wrote:Puppet is stationary, tricks enemies and monsters so that you are safer, and attacks consistent damage depending of your range. Keeps the (now less) stationary nature of bowmen's attacks.

Alloy Wrote:Arrow bomb stuns monsters on a small area, dealing damage, and will keep them stunned even after attacking them. It has the same range as shadow web, only you can cast it from far.

Alloy Wrote:Spirit link is a skill that, with a summon out, will make the summon attack while you get benefits from it. The previous summon's stunning abilities can be replaced by other skills, even if not as effective.

Alloy Wrote:Advanced final attack is a skill that, depending on what kind of attack you are using, you can deal more or less extra hits, making a combo with Hurricane be perfect.

Alloy Wrote:Sharp eyes is a skill that lets you and your whole party deal additional damage depending on their critical rates to maximize that advantage, taking party administration at raids to have a new depth.

Alloy Wrote:Concentration is a skill that adds a buff to weapon attack, while adding an extra saving to the mp used per skill, lowering pot use whatever the kind of potion is, even % based recovery ones.

Alloy Wrote:Inferno is a DoT skill that gets an advanced version on 4th job, that lasts a long time and works for enough time to use other attacks while it lasts, working better on stationary bosses, to have an easy target to keep the fire at.

Alloy Wrote:By the way, advantages Night Lords have that I left out are drain, haste and flash jump. Do those sound familiar to you?

ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:The fact [Dark Flare] works only within a set area until planted elsewhere means it functions best at stationary and pinned bosses. This I won't argue with. However, not all bosses are stationary, not all bosses will be pinned either through either lack of ability to do so or other disturbances.

ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:So you don't want NL's to become stronger, but you want them to have more synergy, which in your opinion, is for them to become stronger? Sorry, but that's what I'm reading here.

White Wrote:I'm instead reading that Dizzy is frustrated with lots of useless skills and (catch word coming) more 'synergy', which I can only assume to mean more skills that work together and more damage buffing skills or skills that do more damage straight up.

ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:So that's not NL's being strong. That's NL's depending on items and on others to be strong that's normally outside their scope of normal damage capabilities. Okay.

White Wrote:Both of you are poorly mistaken. Dark Flare, when combined with certain other aspects of the game (such as high defense) make Dark Flare do less damage, but it still does damage. That's not negative synergy, that's less good synergy.

White Wrote:This is a good point. Shadow stars doesn't have synergy with Expert Star Handling, but it does have good synergy with the NL class itself. Hm.

White Wrote:Doesn't take the attack of stars, but it does take the influence of your 1.75 dmg multiplier as well as buffs and pots and whatever else. Sounds like synergy to me. Considering it's passive and thus always working for you, and giving you free damage, which isn't small damage either. I wish I had passive poison that did 140%. I don't get a DoT at all unless I want to deliberately sacrifice my dpm.

White Wrote:I'll tell you what I use DoT's for, and you can tell me what you use them for. I use DoT's exclusively at bosses that have w.cancel up. There's no reason for me to use them otherwise when I do more damage with hurricane. That being said, I don't see the reason of using DoT's for anything besides at bosses with w.cancel. Ninja Ambush fits the bill in that case. If you're looking for it to do damage when you could normally just be attacking with avenger or TT, then I'd say that's a misunderstanding of the true usefulness of the skill.

White Wrote:Yes, and it's greatly appreciated because we can't pot while attacking, we need to stop and pot thereby greatly reducing our dpm. NL's don't have that problem.

White Wrote:As for game design, both have it. You and Dizzy assume that because one class has better synergy, that your class then has bad synergy. The truth of the matter is that your class merely has less good synergy. Less good =/= bad.

White Wrote:If a group is unable to pin a nonstationary boss, the problems for that group are far greater than less than optimal damage return from Dark Flare. When I go on boss runs, and it's often, the boss is always pinned. Need a grand total of 1 warrior to do that, or just fulfill the KB requirement to pin, which is doable easily on all bosses excluding PB, which you need warriors for crash anyway or you'll never kill it in time with it's damage reflect rates. If you're looking for the small exception for when Dark Flare isn't as useful, then please keep in mind that those times are the small exception, not the norm.

White Wrote:Twisting my words.

White Wrote:My interpretation of you wanting more synergy is also an increase of damage, which is certainly not ignored by the times you've stated that NL's have low damage.
I've said I support an increase of synergy in the actual meaning of the word, where more things are working together to achieve an affect greater than their own individually. Like how Concentrate's secondary effect of reducing mp consumption means BM's don't need to pot mp as often and can save pot money.

White Wrote:That is NL's being strong. Apples are obtainable on an NL and they can use that themselves. If they are 200, they can echo for themselves. They can get SE gloves for themselves. They all have MW30 for themselves. They all have some %boss on their weapons. These are all doable by themselves, without the necessary help of their party.

White Wrote:Twisting my words.

MetaSeraphim Wrote:That is an opinion on what you said, not twisting your words. Just like you have the opinion that Dizzy just wants her class to be supah powerful.

White Wrote:Now, MetaSeraphim, have you something actual to add to this thread or are you content to merely pick apart my words and try and lure me into a mess of word games and semantics? I respect that you're trying to stand up for ShanghaiDizzy but she seems perfectly capable of stating her own opinions just fine. If you have an opinion on this issue, please do state it. If your opinions are strictly relegated to having a problem with me, then feel completely free to PM me, as that is the proper place for such discussions.

ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:Just because it still does damage doesn't mean it's good synergy on a lesser scale. It's not a hard concept to grasp!

White Wrote:1) I never said, nor do I believe, she wants NL's to be 'supah powerful'. Quotes?

White Wrote:I'm done with this topic in this thread, think what you want, but NL's have synergy within their class, plenty of it, just not as much as some other classes. NL's also do great damage, not as much perhaps as some other classes, but my experience says they certainly pull their weight or more than their weight in a party all the time.

White Wrote:1) I never said, nor do I believe, she wants NL's to be 'supah powerful'. Quotes?

White Wrote:My interpretation of you wanting more synergy is also an increase of damage

White Wrote:Yes, because it does do damage, but on a lesser scale for certain characters, that does make it synergy, but on a lesser scale for certain characters. That doesn't make it bad synergy. Now, before you say that damage doesn't equal synergy, keep in mind the skill. If the entire and total purpose of the skill is to do damage, and it does damage, then it accomplishes it's purpose. If all skills play a part in synergy, and this skill, being a skill, is accomplishing it's purpose of doing damage, which is all it's supposed to do, then it plays a part in good synergy. It will do damage if you place it in a good location, that relies on you, and is not a problem with the skill. Just as puppet is useless to me if I throw it between me and a monster that throws a spear (like a kentaurus). I can't complain about poor synergy because I placed the puppet poorly, I used the skill poorly, and thus that's MY fault, not the skills. Same with Dark Flare. I didn't think that was a hard concept but apparently it is.

I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest of your post because it's all irrelevant. My whole position on this topic is built on the recognition that there is synergy, of varying degrees, within the NL class. Since you can't see the 'varying degrees' part, there is no purpose for me to continue further.

White Wrote:I'm done with this topic in this thread, think what you want, but NL's have synergy within their class, plenty of it, just not as much as some other classes. NL's also do great damage, not as much perhaps as some other classes, but my experience says they certainly pull their weight or more than their weight in a party all the time.