+- Southperry.net (https://www.southperry.net)
+-- Forum: Extraction Stuff (https://www.southperry.net/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Forum: Extractions (https://www.southperry.net/forumdisplay.php?fid=68)
+--- Thread: [1.2.381] The Wind (/showthread.php?tid=42033)
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-23
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:I think our (NL's) argument the whole time is that we agreed that NL's don't need more damage (even though they're mediocre in that aspect despite all the funded NL's you see). And as I've said earlier, there's so little synergy amongst our skills that it's almost pathetic people think NL's are still a good class.
I'm unsure what you mean by synergy. Venom works better with TT which together work best with Shadow Partner, which together are most effective at training when you are FJing all over the place towards all the mobs you're killing, and also evading on a regular basis with shadow shifter, and blocking damage from with shadow flare, ALL usable AT THE SAME TIME. Not enough Synergy?
[1.2.381] The Wind - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-05-23
White Wrote:I'm unsure what you mean by synergy. Venom works better with TT which together work best with Shadow Partner, which together are most effective at training when you are FJing all over the place towards all the mobs you're killing, and also evading on a regular basis with shadow shifter, and blocking damage from with shadow flare, ALL usable AT THE SAME TIME. Not enough Synergy?
Venom and TT are just one of the few combinations that have synergy. However, skills like Expert Star handling doesn't have Synergy with Shadow Stars. Half of the passive effect gets turned off the moment Shadow Stars is active making its secondary effect useless.
Shadow Flare also doesn't block damage (do your research). In fact, it doesn't add much at all. It only deals damage based on the amount of damage the nearby party members receive. This means the skill itself has negative synergy with Shadow Shifter. When shifter activates, Shadow Flare does not deal damage, wasting the effect. Furthermore, because NL's FJ all over the place and with Shadow Flare being a stationary beacon with limited range, that's even more negative synergy.
Going a little further, Shadow Web would supposively have a good skill if not for the fact it breaks the web while a webbed foe gets attacked. This defeats the purpose of webbing anything to begin with maybe the exception of trying to run away from a foe.
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-23
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:Venom and TT are just one of the few combinations that have synergy. However, skills like Expert Star handling doesn't have Synergy with Shadow Stars. Half of the passive effect gets turned off the moment Shadow Stars is active making its secondary effect useless.
Firstly, it doesn't say Expert Star handling even affects TT, does it?
Secondly, you're complaining because you can get FREE star recharging w/o having to use stars (besides 200 upfront)? And you're complaining that it doesn't have synergy? You're frustrated because there's an overlap in your skills that makes it easier for you to not use stars...? I'm not sorry, that seems silly.
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:Shadow Flare also doesn't block damage (do your research). In fact, it doesn't add much at all. It only deals damage based on the amount of damage the nearby party members receive. This means the skill itself has negative synergy with Shadow Shifter. When shifter activates, Shadow Flare does not deal damage, wasting the effect. Furthermore, because NL's FJ all over the place and with Shadow Flare being a stationary beacon with limited range, that's even more negative synergy.
I'm sorry, I was mistaken, Shadow Flare doesn't block damage, it reflects it. What a dreadful and useless skill. Sure sucks to have a skill that does damage without you even having to do anything. And what is this about Shadow Shifter having any impact on Dark Flare at all? Trying to do my research and the Ultimate Skills Table says SS helps YOU not take damage. How does that have any bearing on your Dark Flare reflecting damage that your PARTY members take? There's no problem at all. I could make a case for there being some synergy but it's tenuous at best.
Again, who cares when YOU go, what matters is if your PARTY members take damage. And this is all fairly irrelevant as it'd be primarily used at bosses where everyone stands in about the same place for periods of time, and thus NO ONE is moving, and it can reflect perfectly fine.
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:Going a little further, Shadow Web would supposively have a good skill if not for the fact it breaks the web while a webbed foe gets attacked. This defeats the purpose of webbing anything to begin with maybe the exception of trying to run away from a foe.
Sounds like a useless skill. I already conceded NL's have a bunch of those. *shrug*
[1.2.381] The Wind - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-05-23
White Wrote:Firstly, it doesn't say Expert Star handling even affects TT, does it?
Secondly, you're complaining because you can get FREE star recharging w/o having to use stars (besides 200 upfront)? And you're complaining that it doesn't have synergy? You're frustrated because there's an overlap in your skills that makes it easier for you to not use stars...? I'm not sorry, that seems silly.
The second half of the passive is that when a star is recharged, the next hit is a guaranteed critical hit. This DOES affect Triple Throw. However, stars cannot recharge if Shadow Stars is active. Using Triple Throw without Shadow Stars is counterintuitive and using Shadow Stars makes the whole second half of Expert's passive meaningless. Negative synergy.
White Wrote:I'm sorry, I was mistaken, Shadow Flare doesn't block damage, it reflects it. What a dreadful and useless skill. Sure sucks to have a skill that does damage without you even having to do anything. And what is this about Shadow Shifter having any impact on Dark Flare at all? Trying to do my research and the Ultimate Skills Table says SS helps YOU not take damage. How does that have any bearing on your Dark Flare reflecting damage that your PARTY members take? There's no problem at all. I could make a case for there being some synergy but it's tenuous at best.
The reflecting part is fine. That's not a big issue at all. But here's the problem, it'll only deal damage based on the damage you receive. In regards to other party members not taking damage, that's where the terrible synergy extends even further. Let's take a look:
Warriors, Paladins especially, take a lot less damage than normal due to their damage mitigation buffs. Less damage reflected back. Negative synergy right there.
Mages possess elemental resist. Considering most of the attacks at bosses that hit them are elemental, the damage is reduced again. Less damage reflected back. Negative synergy once again.
For thieves, I've covered NL's, but the same applies to Shadowers.
So this means out of the 5 class sets, only 2 benefit from Dark Flare. But from what I know, archers get a passive increase to avoid, too. On top of that, they have a decent amount of DEX, which further increases their avoid and reduces the likelihood of them being attacked. Corsairs fall under this condition, too, with the exception of having avoid skills. So, that leaves Buccs (poor Buccs) being the only class who will usually front the entirety of damage with minimal mitigation to generate decent damage for Dark Flare. What they SHOULD have done with this skill was include the Night Lord's damage range into the damage reflected in addition to the damage taken, too.
And stop trying to make the skill look better when it's clear as day that this skill sucks even if we "have a skill that does damage without you even having to do anything."
White Wrote:Again, who cares when YOU go, what matters is if your PARTY members take damage. And this is all fairly irrelevant as it'd be primarily used at bosses where everyone stands in about the same place for periods of time, and thus NO ONE is moving, and it can reflect perfectly fine.
Let's take a look at what you said a few posts back. The typical bossing parties consist of NL, NL, NL, Bishop, mule, some other mule. So in that context, Dark Flare only has semi-decent synergy with three of six characters. Wonderful. Standing in the same place for periods of time doesn't suddenly place the skill into a useful state. Furthermore, not all bosses are stationary. Especially in the more recent cases of Von Leon and the soon to come Empress, Dark Flare's even less likely to see the light of day.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Locked - 2011-05-23
Meso Guard doesn't effect damage from Dark Flare.
Just saying.
[1.2.381] The Wind - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-05-23
Locked Wrote:Meso Guard doesn't effect damage from Dark Flare.
Just saying.
I could have sworn it was you telling me otherwise. But even in that case, Dark Flare sucks because of Shadowers' high avoid.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Dudewitbow - 2011-05-23
The only use for Dark Flare really when i first saw it was
A) Body Guard
B) bosses that spam 1/1
other than that I personally thought it was useless. I was one of the first people to argue Shield Mastery > Dark Flare in a Shadower's case
[1.2.381] The Wind - JoeTang - 2011-05-23
White Wrote:Firstly, it doesn't say Expert Star handling even affects TT, does it?
Secondly, you're complaining because you can get FREE star recharging w/o having to use stars (besides 200 upfront)? And you're complaining that it doesn't have synergy? You're frustrated because there's an overlap in your skills that makes it easier for you to not use stars...? I'm not sorry, that seems silly.
This is the stupidest post I've seen yet. This is why Night Lords hate on Archers so much. Archers get a 2nd job skill that lets them use infinite arrows. Night Lords get two 4th job skills that let them spend stars slower, and you can't use them together. You can either spend 200 stars every 3 minutes, or you can pretend that recharging one star 20% of the time is impactful when you throw six stars and attack at 600ms. (i.e. you spend 1740 stars in 3 minutes instead of 1800 stars)
As for the critical damage, it's not a significant amount, but the fact that Archers get the skill that makes them get 100% critical rate when they dodge a monster, and Night Lords get a skill that gives them 100% critical rate when they recharge a star which is impossible because Shadow Claw is on is mindbogglingly retarded.
The archer equivalent of this sh'itty skill would be making Ultimate Inferno/Ultimate Strafe do less damage if you had Phoenix/Frostprey active. SYNERGY F'UCK YEAH!
[1.2.381] The Wind - Alilatias - 2011-05-23
Yup, Night Lords do need some major help.
My guess? Night Lords can't get an infinite star skill simply because of the way the ammo system is designed. Archers probably have Soul Arrow because we get unrechargable quivers, and Soul Arrow doesn't take into account whatever ATK bonuses our arrows have. Night Lords and Corsairs probably don't because they get rechargable stars and bullets that matter a lot more in terms of ATK bonuses.
I am curious about one thing, to test whether my theory might have any actual meaning or not. Get a set of Ilibi. Use Shadow Claw. Switch to something like Tobi. Does Shadow Claw get canceled out? If not, does the star switching result in your attack bonus being reduced in any way?
If the above result in 'no' for both questions, then I guess we'd have to see a complete overhaul of the ammo system before Night Lords and Corsairs ever see any kind of Soul Star/Bullet skill. I'd hope that Nexon realizes how horrible the ammo system is by now. It was a method of balance before, but now, it causes way more problems than it actually balances. Look at Mechanics, for instance. They are able to dish out similar ranged damage, without having to deal with the hassle of having thousands of bullets take up valuable USE inventory space that could be better used for pots otherwise. (I'd hope that the very fact that Mechanics don't use bullets means that Nexon now knows that the ammo system is stupid and are planning on doing something about it eventually, but that's likely hoping for too much.)
Other than that... Before I go off talking about possible changes to NL skills, I will fully acknowledge that I am probably woefully ignorant in regards to exactly how half of the Hermit and NL skills are supposed to work. Shadow Web in particular is one that has always turned up as a huge question mark in my head for years. And is Shadow Meso even that useful?
I'd guess that there could be greater importance given to Shadow Partner. The Summoning Rock requirement for Shadow Partner being removed seems to be a given. Actually, if they were to do that, it could probably even be changed into a toggled skill of sorts, like the Battlemage auras. Then there could be skills that add additional bonuses to Shadow Partner, or utilize it in different ways.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was an Advanced Shadow Partner skill at some point, upgrading its attack to something like 70% along with giving additional HP.
One of the ideas I had been tossing around earlier was the idea that, for a very short amount of time, you could make your Shadow Partner stop copying your attacks. It would instead focus all of its efforts into taking all hits in your place (maybe even rendering you immune to 1/1 attempts). In this state, it could also launch counterattacks that inflict damage based on your damage range. Then again, this could make both Dark Flare and Shadow Shifter redundant whenever this new theoretical ability was used.
I could totally see Shadow Shifter being changed so that every attack you dodge allows for a 100% critical hit rate for the next second. It'd still help with keeping damage at decent levels if that theoretical ability up there is used. Maybe it could be given something like a small HP and MP restoration effect each time something misses you as well.
Shadow Web... Maybe it could be a thrown attack that pulls all monsters within range towards wherever the web lands, and immobilizes them there.
Ninja Storm could probably be changed so that all monsters that are affected are pushed towards the direction that you are facing, are stunned afterwards, and you are given invincibility frames during the attack animation so that you don't take damage from monsters that were behind you.
There's still the issue of Ninja Ambush and Taunt, of which I'm not sure what I'd do with them at the moment. Ninja Ambush could probably be scrapped entirely for all it's worth.
[1.2.381] The Wind - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-05-23
Shadow Stars uses whatever stars you had in front with 200 or more and retains those stars until the buff runs out or casts again. So if I swapped the ilbis in front with tobis, I'll still be throwing ilbis until the skill runs out or until I use Shadow Stars again.
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-23
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:The second half of the passive is that when a star is recharged, the next hit is a guaranteed critical hit. This DOES affect Triple Throw. However, stars cannot recharge if Shadow Stars is active. Using Triple Throw without Shadow Stars is counterintuitive and using Shadow Stars makes the whole second half of Expert's passive meaningless. Negative synergy.
Ok.
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:Warriors, Paladins especially, take a lot less damage than normal due to their damage mitigation buffs. Less damage reflected back. Negative synergy right there.
Mages possess elemental resist. Considering most of the attacks at bosses that hit them are elemental, the damage is reduced again. Less damage reflected back. Negative synergy once again.
For thieves, I've covered NL's, but the same applies to Shadowers.
How is it negative synergy when you're still doing damage? I'll address this more in a second.
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:So this means out of the 5 class sets, only 2 benefit from Dark Flare. But from what I know, archers get a passive increase to avoid, too. On top of that, they have a decent amount of DEX, which further increases their avoid and reduces the likelihood of them being attacked. Corsairs fall under this condition, too, with the exception of having avoid skills. So, that leaves Buccs (poor Buccs) being the only class who will usually front the entirety of damage with minimal mitigation to generate decent damage for Dark Flare.
Any damage is a benefit. Secondly, I think you haven't been on high level boss runs if you think somehow our avoids make us not get hit. In a group of 6 people, comprised of NL's and BM's (remember that SE skill? It adds to your damage, remember? Yeah, we're in a party w/ NL's to buff you to do more damage) someone always gets hit. I have decent gear, and a decent range, and I get hit probably around or maybe a little less than 50% of the time. And bosses commonly spam attacks. If you went to high leveled bosses, you'd know that.
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:Let's take a look at what you said a few posts back. The typical bossing parties consist of NL, NL, NL, Bishop, mule, some other mule.
I didn't say that, in fact it's flawed information. I deliberately disagree with it. The best bossing group comprises several warriors for crash, atleast one BM for SE, no bishops because they take up splits and don't earn it even with buffs and whatever else, and any NL's that can hit and pull their weight.
JoeTang Wrote:This is the stupidest post I've seen yet.
I'll consider that an honor since you've been here a while.
JoeTang Wrote:This is why Night Lords hate on Archers so much. Archers get a 2nd job skill that lets them use infinite arrows. Night Lords get two 4th job skills that let them spend stars slower, and you can't use them together. You can either spend 200 stars every 3 minutes, or you can pretend that recharging one star 20% of the time is impactful when you throw six stars and attack at 600ms. (i.e. you spend 1740 stars in 3 minutes instead of 1800 stars)
This is why many BM's dislike NL's so much, because they are ignorant. If I got TWENTY-SEVEN attack arrows that were RECHARGEABLE for only a couple million mesos, I would NEVER complain about having to recharge them. Apparently you don't realize that Soul Arrow doesn't give us any attack. Doesn't matter what arrows we have in our inventory, we don't get it. I honestly cannot comprehend how NL's can say Soul Arrow is better than stars that give a noticeable attack bonus. If you want Soul Star and thus to lose nearly 30 attack, I wish you'd get it so you guys would seriously stop whining. It's unbelievably annoying and ignorant.
JoeTang Wrote:As for the critical damage, it's not a significant amount, but the fact that Archers get the skill that makes them get 100% critical rate when they dodge a monster, and Night Lords get a skill that gives them 100% critical rate when they recharge a star which is impossible because Shadow Claw is on is mindbogglingly retarded.
Because classes can't be different? Need to have the same skills? Apparently you've so quickly forgotten how useless that critical is. As a BM, shooting 8.33 arrows a second, how impactful do you think that 1 critical is? I'll tell you, it's not impactful in the slightest. Plays a much larger role for MM's that have all 6 of their U.Strafe arrows crit. When this patch hits GMS, that Dodge will actually play a more noticeable role, but you still don't know what will happen to NL's upcoming. Ridiculous, take your whining elsewhere.
Alilatias Wrote:I could totally see Shadow Shifter being changed so that every attack you dodge allows for a 100% critical hit rate for the next second. It'd still help with keeping damage at decent levels if that theoretical ability up there is used. Maybe it could be given something like a small HP and MP restoration effect each time something misses you as well.
I can't. As that would be absurdly imbalanced. NL's already don't get hit too much. With 4k+ avoids and a 45% chance of MISS anyway, it would be an absurd buff to NL's that would, imo, make them way too powerful.
[1.2.381] The Wind - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-05-23
White Wrote:How is it negative synergy when you're still doing damage? I'll address this more in a second.It's negative synergy because the effects of one skill used by that class reduces the effectiveness of Dark Flare, which is the skill in question. It's a no brainer to realize that Achilles will reduce the amount of damage dealt by Dark Flare doesn't make good synergy. The fact that it still allows Dark Flare to produce damage doesn't mean it has synergy. There's a large difference.
White Wrote:Any damage is a benefit. Secondly, I think you haven't been on high level boss runs if you think somehow our avoids make us not get hit. In a group of 6 people, comprised of NL's and BM's (remember that SE skill? It adds to your damage, remember? Yeah, we're in a party w/ NL's to buff you to do more damage) someone always gets hit. I have decent gear, and a decent range, and I get hit probably around or maybe a little less than 50% of the time. And bosses commonly spam attacks. If you went to high leveled bosses, you'd know that.So you're going to play the "you probably have no bossing experience" card now, huh? Sucks for you then. I've been fighting high-end bosses practically nonstop until the release of LHC and hackers hogging the channels.
First off, in a party of 6, sure, people will get hit. Whether or not it's worth getting free damage because 1 out of 6 people may possibly get hit doesn't suddenly change the skill into something great nor does it provide the synergy that I speak of. Second off, bosses don't spam skills enough to grant Dark Flare the decent damage output you're suggesting it gives. The only real exception to this is CZak skill spam during arm phase, however, half of the time, they just deal 1 damage to you. WOO! 13 DAMAGE REFLECTED BACK AT YA! HT and CHT are also not nearly as spammy as you suggest either. Damage dealt by Von Leon is laughable. PB takes an average of one attack every 2 seconds (sometimes faster) which is not spammy, AND he's not stationary meaning he can easily move out of range of Dark Flare should his AI permit him to move away from that direction.
So not only does Dark Flare lack synergy with your teammates, it also lacks synergy with the game itself.
White Wrote:This is why many BM's dislike NL's so much, because they are ignorant. If I got TWENTY-SEVEN attack arrows that were RECHARGEABLE for only a couple million mesos, I would NEVER complain about having to recharge them. Apparently you don't realize that Soul Arrow doesn't give us any attack. Doesn't matter what arrows we have in our inventory, we don't get it. I honestly cannot comprehend how NL's can say Soul Arrow is better than stars that give a noticeable attack bonus. If you want Soul Star and thus to lose nearly 30 attack, I wish you'd get it so you guys would seriously stop whining. It's unbelievably annoying and ignorant.We'll give you the 27 attack arrows if we can take 27 attack off of all your weapons and buff our claws by 30 attack. And that wasn't even the point he was trying to express.
White Wrote:Because classes can't be different? Need to have the same skills? Apparently you've so quickly forgotten how useless that critical is. As a BM, shooting 8.33 arrows a second, how impactful do you think that 1 critical is? I'll tell you, it's not impactful in the slightest. Plays a much larger role for MM's that have all 6 of their U.Strafe arrows crit. When this patch hits GMS, that Dodge will actually play a more noticeable role, but you still don't know what will happen to NL's upcoming. Ridiculous, take your whining elsewhere.The point isn't even about the classes being different nor the fact crits suck. It's about the skills not complimenting each other at all THUS HAVING NO SYNERGY. Joe's whole point was to show you that though archers can activate half of that passive effect by just dodging while Night Lords will practically never activate their half of the passive effect.
White Wrote:I can't. As that would be absurdly imbalanced. NL's already don't get hit too much. With 4k+ avoids and a 45% chance of MISS anyway, it would be an absurd buff to NL's that would, imo, make them way too powerful.The existence of AFA already makes BM retardedly strong. Why aren't NL's allowed the same luxury?
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-24
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:It's negative synergy because the effects of one skill used by that class reduces the effectiveness of Dark Flare, which is the skill in question. It's a no brainer to realize that Achilles will reduce the amount of damage dealt by Dark Flare doesn't make good synergy. The fact that it still allows Dark Flare to produce damage doesn't mean it has synergy. There's a large difference.
This whole discussion is pretty stupid, as i'm coming to realize. I'm not sorry your class has a lot of useless skills or that the useful skills that lack 'synergy' aren't optimal and overpowered.
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:So you're going to play the "you probably have no bossing experience" card now, huh? Sucks for you then. I've been fighting high-end bosses practically nonstop until the release of LHC and hackers hogging the channels.
Yes, that is the card i'm going to play. In my experience, speaking from Khaini, hackers only hog zak and czak, ht isn't that bad.
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:First off, in a party of 6, sure, people will get hit. Whether or not it's worth getting free damage because 1 out of 6 people may possibly get hit doesn't suddenly change the skill into something great nor does it provide the synergy that I speak of. Second off, bosses don't spam skills enough to grant Dark Flare the decent damage output you're suggesting it gives. The only real exception to this is CZak skill spam during arm phase, however, half of the time, they just deal 1 damage to you. WOO! 13 DAMAGE REFLECTED BACK AT YA! HT and CHT are also not nearly as spammy as you suggest either. Damage dealt by Von Leon is laughable. PB takes an average of one attack every 2 seconds (sometimes faster) which is not spammy, AND he's not stationary meaning he can easily move out of range of Dark Flare should his AI permit him to move away from that direction.
I don't know what czak you fight but I certainly take more than 1 damage from his attacks. Nor do I know the ht and cht you've been fighting as those both spam attacks (when auto-agg isn't broken), and those attacks also do more than one damage. I will agree though that pb doesn't spam skills, nor do the statue phases frankly. However, your mention of pb demonstrates that you've probably never killed one. Warriors pin pb to the right corner and ranged classes attack from under the platform nearby allowing them to duck to avoid the genesis and sed music notes, durrrr. Note, pinned pb doesn't move far (risking endangering the ranged classes for touch or worse, pb moving a little to the left and a paladin's guardian pushing it into the ranged classes, it's happened to me, go on a couple pb runs and you might understand).
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:So not only does Dark Flare lack synergy with your teammates, it also lacks synergy with the game itself.
It does damage, for free, and is definitely usable, stop whining please. You're right, it doesn't do gobs and giggles of damage for nothing in return, bummer.
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:We'll give you the 27 attack arrows if we can take 27 attack off of all your weapons and buff our claws by 30 attack. And that wasn't even the point he was trying to express.
Firstly, that's not even close to accurate. Taking 27 attack off our weapons AND buffing your claws by 30 attack is double. Secondly, go ahead, and I hope you enjoy our garbage 1.2 multiplier instead of your 1.75 one.
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:The point isn't even about the classes being different nor the fact crits suck. It's about the skills not complimenting each other at all THUS HAVING NO SYNERGY. Joe's whole point was to show you that though archers can activate half of that passive effect by just dodging while Night Lords will practically never activate their half of the passive effect.
I'm seeing more and more than Maple is not a good game for you. If you're really frustrated about a lack of skills working together in perfect harmony goo goo gah gah then play a different game. Maple isn't like that. It, like all other mmo's rely on teamwork, meaning not one class has it all. If NL's had all this great synergy between skills that all worked well together and complimented each other and buffed and worked well with all other classes, there would be no point to having other classes.
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:The existence of AFA already makes BM retardedly strong. Why aren't NL's allowed the same luxury?
Because you've had it for 6-8 years depending on where you live?
[1.2.381] The Wind - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-05-24
White Wrote:This whole discussion is pretty stupid, as i'm coming to realize. I'm not sorry your class has a lot of useless skills or that the useful skills that lack 'synergy' aren't optimal and overpowered.I'm sorry your inability to grasp what's being said over and over is abominable.
White Wrote:I don't know what czak you fight but I certainly take more than 1 damage from his attacks. Nor do I know the ht and cht you've been fighting as those both spam attacks (when auto-agg isn't broken), and those attacks also do more than one damage. I will agree though that pb doesn't spam skills, nor do the statue phases frankly. However, your mention of pb demonstrates that you've probably never killed one. Warriors pin pb to the right corner and ranged classes attack from under the platform nearby allowing them to duck to avoid the genesis and sed music notes, durrrr. Note, pinned pb doesn't move far (risking endangering the ranged classes for touch or worse, pb moving a little to the left and a paladin's guardian pushing it into the ranged classes, it's happened to me, go on a couple pb runs and you might understand).
CZak's arm attacks that apply status effects come with 1 damage. HT/CHT also doesn't spam attacks that often even prior to the auto-aggro screw up. No, I've never killed a PB, but it still doesn't change the fact Dark Flare sucked in usage in regards to that boss. PB is STILL considered a non-stationary boss regardless of rush or not. This is a fact that will not change. And so long as there are any non-stationary targets bosses or not, Dark Flare's "usefulness" can diminish even further.
White Wrote:It does damage, for free, and is definitely usable, stop whining please. You're right, it doesn't do gobs and giggles of damage for nothing in return, bummer.Free damage != synergy. Free damage also != good skill. Get it through your head.
White Wrote:I'm seeing more and more than Maple is not a good game for you. If you're really frustrated about a lack of skills working together in perfect harmony goo goo gah gah then play a different game. Maple isn't like that. It, like all other mmo's rely on teamwork, meaning not one class has it all. If NL's had all this great synergy between skills that all worked well together and complimented each other and buffed and worked well with all other classes, there would be no point to having other classes.Having synergy does not mean being a jack of all trades. Synergy means having skills that compliment each other. Warrior skills compliment themselves. Mage skills compliment themselves. Archers and Pirates do, too. Shadowers have complimentery skills as well. Night Lords have minimal.
White Wrote:Because you've had it for 6-8 years depending on where you live?The argument "because your class has been overpowered by 6-8 years" doesn't balance out to "your class should now suck" in a game design standpoint.
[1.2.381] The Wind - shagreen heart - 2011-05-24
two hits on pierce now? hory sheet
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-24
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:I'm sorry your inability to grasp what's being said over and over is abominable.
Fiesty
.ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:CZak's arm attacks that apply status effects come with 1 damage. HT/CHT also doesn't spam attacks that often even prior to the auto-aggro screw up. No, I've never killed a PB, but it still doesn't change the fact Dark Flare sucked in usage in regards to that boss. PB is STILL considered a non-stationary boss regardless of rush or not. This is a fact that will not change. And so long as there are any non-stationary targets bosses or not, Dark Flare's "usefulness" can diminish even further.
I didn't say it was a stationary boss, I said that PB is pinned to the right and the ranged classes stand in a certain spot, which is where you can, and I always see, Dark Flare planted. Also, we apparently have different ideas of spammed attacks. HT and CHT do spam attacks in my experience and opinion.
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:Free damage != synergy. Free damage also != good skill. Get it through your head.
More feistiness. I don't particularly appreciate the bit at the end. Nevertheless, it appears that you're arguing both. You want BOTH strong skills AND great synergy. One without the other is a great source of frustration. Choose a new class that you feel fulfills your wants, instead of whining. Be proactive.
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:Having synergy does not mean being a jack of all trades. Synergy means having skills that compliment each other. Warrior skills compliment themselves. Mage skills compliment themselves. Archers and Pirates do, too. Shadowers have complimentery skills as well. Night Lords have minimal.
Each class has pros and cons, that should be mutually agreeable. NL's have lots of damage, and less synergy. Go play a Shad, more synergy but notably worse damage. Or better yet, play a Bucc, lots of synergy and abysmal damage.
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:The argument "because your class has been overpowered by 6-8 years" doesn't balance out to "your class should now suck" in a game design standpoint.
I didn't say 'your class should now suck'. I don't think anyone did. Who said that? Quotes please. If you look at all the posts i've made, you'll notice that none of them say NL's will or do suck. I've said several times that NL's are plenty strong enough, and that they have useless skills, and that i'm totally supportive of NL's getting more skills that enhance their synergy, as long as it's done in a way that doesn't amplify their damage, because that aspect of NL's is fine as in.
Go ahead, look at all my posts, i've only been here a little while, there's not much to sort through.
[1.2.381] The Wind - IllegallySane - 2011-05-24
Okay wow, I'm going to need some popcorn for this thread now.
[1.2.381] The Wind - MetaSeraphim - 2011-05-24
White Wrote:Choose a new class that you feel fulfills your wants, instead of whining. Be proactive.
This is an arrogant statement. There is nothing wrong for wanting a class you enjoy above the others to be a little more enjoyable. And I don't believe I've seen Dizzy say anything about more damage once in this thread and certainly not whining about her class. Merely stating the flaws of her class. It seems more like you're whining about Night Lords getting any sort of damage boost when they get rebalanced and thinking each Night Lord that are saying their class is under par now wants a huge damage boost.
[1.2.381] The Wind - hadriel - 2011-05-24
That will do. This is a thread on Archers update, NOT about NLs. If you guys want to complain about NL skills not having synergy and stuff, get the hell out of here, or else keep it tightly focused.
Hadriel
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-24
MetaSeraphim Wrote:This is an arrogant statement. There is nothing wrong for wanting a class you enjoy above the others to be a little more enjoyable. And I don't believe I've seen Dizzy say anything about more damage once in this thread and certainly not whining about her class. Merely stating the flaws of her class. It seems more like you're whining about Night Lords getting any sort of damage boost when they get rebalanced and thinking each Night Lord that are saying their class is under par now wants a huge damage boost.
To the first part, that's not what i'm reading when I read what Dizzy has been typing. I'm not sensing that Dizzy is casually interested in Nexon making NL's a bit more enjoyable to play. I'm instead reading that Dizzy is frustrated with lots of useless skills and (catch word coming) more 'synergy', which I can only assume to mean more skills that work together and more damage buffing skills or skills that do more damage straight up. To which i've been replying that skills working together is completely reasonable and overdue, while more damage is not necessary as NL's already do top notch dpm at bosses anyway.
To the second part, I don't recall outright stating or implying that, "each Night Lord...saying their class is under par now wants a huge damage boost." In fact, I believe i've been the principle person saying that I don't believe NL's should get a damage boost. I feel strongly on the matter, is it inappropriate for me to say my opinions in a calm yet succinct way? No, it's not. Have I been succinct? Yes, I believe so. Have I been calm? Not always, but I feel i've done an adequate job of not flaming nor baiting in an overly aggressive way.
Finally, I haven't whined about NL's getting a damage boost. There's no data that suggests that they are getting a damage boost at all. There's no information whatsoever on the issue of NL's skills undergoing a tune-up! How exactly would you say i'm, "whining about Night Lords getting any sort of damage boost when they get rebalanced"? I haven't. I've expressed a fairly strong disinterest in seeing an improvement in their damage dealing capabilities, but I haven't dwelled on that for more than a couple of sentences at most at a time. And my posts aren't simple one liners.