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+--- Thread: [1.2.381] The Wind (/showthread.php?tid=42033)
[1.2.381] The Wind - CarrionCrow - 2011-05-23
White Wrote:Wild Hunters vs BMs? Yeah, been there done that.
As far as NL's, I really really find it hard to be sympathetic to the plight of NL's. When I go on pb runs, the NL's (normally 3) ALL do more damage than any of the ranged or warrior classes. Those three nl's probably do near or better than the damage of the rest of us combined. If it was just one, i'd say he's a godly funded fluke. Two? Godly funded flukes probably. But three? It's getting too common. And those are just the ones I PB with. I'm not even addressing the nl's I see on the street or at guard ani or any of those things. NL's seem quite potent as they are now and I find it hard to get on board for some large overhaul like Archers, and especially BM's just got, which was desperately needed because of how effective NL's are currently.
It is not a fluke. NLs have been the class picked by the uber funded for a long time. Old habits die hard.
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-23
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:I don't care for damage (and Night Lords are amongst the bottom for DPS). Nor do I really care for it to be ultra dynamic. However, when nearly all but a few of a 4th job class's skills are useless, I'm willing to say the class is garbage.
Also, I want to say that being able to KS another class doesn't mean that the KS-ing class is better than the KS'd class.
I'm not really sure what you're looking for.
I don't know how things will change when the Chaos patches hit, but currently, all bosses are easily survivable. cht does around 5k magic. grandpa and bodyguards do 3-4k max. czak does like 8k touch and like 5k magic, pb does 10k max if you don't touch him, ariel can do up to 11k w/ her genesis if you let her buff her matk, but if you're properly crashing her to prevent w.cancel, she can't buff and she'll only do like 9k. As such, all the hard bosses are easily survivable, so it's not a matter of living. It's actually (afaik) a matter of killing the boss quickly so you can get your loot and get out before dc'ers track you or people dc randomly or other silliness. Meaning, damage (I referred to it as ksing above) reigns supreme.
So please, define what makes a class 'better' than another in your eyes because to me, damage is a significant factor, survivability is another one.
CarrionCrow, being a 200 Khainian NL yourself, can you shed some light on this for me? I genuinely am confused why there are NL's talking about this Archer update as if it's the death of NL's or nexon's deliberate attempt to make NL's worthless (or more worthless than the already are as some would say).
EDIT: So you're saying that the NL's I see that are very strong and effective bossers are just like that because it's a mindset issue? The class as a whole is broken, yet damage whoring rich kids still pick it gladly and overwhelmingly more than any other single class? That seems hard to swallow if NL's really are as bad as some claim.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Dark Zero - 2011-05-23
after this update Archers are the new DB of this game... or i mean TROLL Archers.... (the guy who did the drawing of the troll blades can do a troll archer now??)
[1.2.381] The Wind - Teppi - 2011-05-23
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:More like NL's need a big tune up. They've been a mediocre 4th job class before BigBang (high damage doesn't make it a good class), they've went to below mediocre after BigBang, and without any updates/upgrades to it, NL's will stay garbage. Shadowers, on the other hand, probably don't need much of an update.
I just hope Nexon doesn't do something stupid like only give NL's Quadra Throw or some crap and call it a day.
Spoiler
![[Image: 2e5qpug.jpg]](http://i55.tinypic.com/2e5qpug.jpg)
from what've been done with archers, i can totally see that nexon does this:
1st job: double throw
2nd job: triple throw
3rd job: quadruple throw
4th job: quintuple throw
well nexon did this with BaM so there is a high chance that this will happen to boost the dmg. and from what i see with phoenix and the passive that it brings along, it wouldn't be surprise if they decided to replace -insert useless 4th job skill- and replace with advance shadow partner with more attributes to it (maybe attack x3, +hp % +mp%, etc. etc.)
[1.2.381] The Wind - CarrionCrow - 2011-05-23
White Wrote:CarrionCrow, being a 200 Khainian NL yourself, can you shed some light on this for me? I genuinely am confused why there are NL's talking about this Archer update as if it's the death of NL's or nexon's deliberate attempt to make NL's worthless (or more worthless than the already are as some would say).
No, it aint the death of NLs. It is just a big bummer seeing how they make another class turn into some kind of better version of what we feel was NL territory. You are wrong in saying NLs only need minor fixes though, we have, hands down, the most boring skill set in the game. DPS is one thing, but for many of us, fun and pretty skills are kind of important too. That's why my new character is an Evan.
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-23
CarrionCrow Wrote:No, it aint the death of NLs. It is just a big bummer seeing how they make another class turn into some kind of better version of what we feel was NL territory. You are wrong in saying NLs only need minor fixes though, we have, hands down, the most boring skill set in the game. DPS is one thing, but for many of us, fun and pretty skills are kind of important too. That's why my new character is an Evan.
TT is a boring and lame looking skill. I'll give you that. It is spammed and as unflashy as it gets. While there is the option of buying nx stars, it's not fair or right to recommend that as a way of dressing up a boring skill.
As for the possibilities listen above, advanced sp being one I can definitely see being implemented, that would bother me. I honestly wouldn't care at all if NL's got a guard like skill and extra hp and avoids and all that, but when it comes down to damage buffing, I get nervous because I know that NL's are already a very strong class, if boring.
[1.2.381] The Wind - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-05-23
White Wrote:CarrionCrow, being a 200 Khainian NL yourself, can you shed some light on this for me? I genuinely am confused why there are NL's talking about this Archer update as if it's the death of NL's or nexon's deliberate attempt to make NL's worthless (or more worthless than the already are as some would say).
EDIT: So you're saying that the NL's I see that are very strong and effective bossers are just like that because it's a mindset issue? The class as a whole is broken, yet damage whoring rich kids still pick it gladly and overwhelmingly more than any other single class? That seems hard to swallow if NL's really are as bad as some claim.
I'll shed insight in addition. I'm 18x myself and mid-high end funded. The reason why uber funded kids make NL's is because they don't do research on the class and only carry on memories of the class being "godly" back in the day. Furthermore, it's a brainless class to play and "power" can be acquired "easily" due to the massive amounts of LUK gear lying around.
White Wrote:So please, define what makes a class 'better' than another in your eyes because to me, damage is a significant factor, survivability is another one.
I've stopped caring about survivability since there's something called wheels and HP washing. However, a good class, in my opinion, is a class that is able to have good skill synergy. If you look at the warrior updates, the skills compliment each other really well within their own classes. Same with the mage and archer updates. And then you get to Night Lords where it just feels like a huge mish mesh of thrown together skills without a half ass thought.
[1.2.381] The Wind - VirgilDiablo - 2011-05-23
Teppi Wrote:from what've been done with archers, i can totally see that nexon does this:
1st job: double throw
2nd job: triple throw
3rd job: quadruple throw
4th job: quintuple throw
well nexon did this with BaM so there is a high chance that this will happen to boost the dmg. and from what i see with phoenix and the passive that it brings along, it wouldn't be surprise if they decided to replace -insert useless 4th job skill- and replace with advance shadow partner with more attributes to it (maybe attack x3, +hp % +mp%, etc. etc.)
i don't know about saying there's a high chance. surely they can figure something out besides throwing more stars. with as varied skills as dual blades have, they've obviously got the means to. the only thing that separates night lords and dual blades (besides gameplay mechanics, of course) is that night lords use a claw and throwing stars and dual blades have... well, two blades.
[1.2.381] The Wind - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-05-23
Teppi Wrote:from what've been done with archers, i can totally see that nexon does this:
1st job: double throw
2nd job: triple throw
3rd job: quadruple throw
4th job: quintuple throw
If they do that...
Spoiler
![[Image: insns8.jpg]](http://i51.tinypic.com/insns8.jpg)
![[Image: qy8xec.jpg]](http://i54.tinypic.com/qy8xec.jpg)
![[Image: 24neno1.jpg]](http://i51.tinypic.com/24neno1.jpg)
...I'm outta here.
[1.2.381] The Wind - JoeTang - 2011-05-23
Night Lords and Shadowers have hugely shitty 4th job books, I expect at least three new skills to kill Ambush, Ninja Storm, Venom, and improve Taunt and Shadow Stars.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Avenger moved to 2nd job or some sort of equivalent mob skill change to Drain, Triple Throw down to 3rd, and then a new attacking skill that's basically Hurricane, maybe a bit slower so it's different.
List of useless Thief pomegranate
Nimble Body
Double Stab
Meso Up
Shadow Web
Shadow Meso is pretty crappy if not for its special effect (I've actually never heard of anyone using it, does it actually work?)
20 point Flash Jump
30 point Taunt
30 point Shadow Stars
Venom
Ambush
Ninja Storm
Shield Mastery
Chakra
[1.2.381] The Wind - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-05-23
JoeTang Wrote:Shadow Meso is pretty crappy if not for its special effect (I've actually never heard of anyone using it, does it actually work?)
If by special effect, you mean the cancellation of W.Def buff and M.Def buff. Sadly, it's not what we're hoping it is (ie. W.ATT Cancel and M.ATT Cancel). Instead, it's the buffs those stone golems in Golem Temple apply when you hit them.
[1.2.381] The Wind - MetaSeraphim - 2011-05-23
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:...I'm outta here.
New skill!
Raining Stars!
[1.2.381] The Wind - TamilTiger1 - 2011-05-23
I can see White's concerns regarding a big tune up for NLs. I've played almost all the classes at bosses (except Paladin, Shadower, Dualblade), that includes a few high level NLs. There is no doubt they are the easiest to use at bosses for dmg. Even if papers say they have really low DPS, they do so much better at real battles than all other classes. I can use a level 18x NL and attack without being interupted for a full minute while my higher level BM with better funding can only do that for about 10 seconds at the same bosses. Hurricane stoping from taking dmg, skill locks, stuns all make a BM loose so much DPM that numbers on paper don't show. NLs don't have to worry about this for most of the boss runs letting them do so much more dmg. You can talk about pinning bosses with a BM where they do most dmg they can, but thats none of the major bosses.
NLs do have a lot of useless skills that shouldn't be there. They should get those fixed but that shouldn't mean they also get a huge boost in 1vs1 skills that people are suggesting (4, or 5 hitting 1vs1 skill). It should help them in training or something. Not for bossing where it makes all major bossing party's go 4NL, 1bishop etc. That would mean the balancing did nothing at all. NLs bossing ability is nothing to complain about. Maybe some change to avenger like the BM's got with inferno. Even support skills that boost their power is scary with their crazy formula, so I can't even agree with them geting much of those. They should get some flashy mob attacks, and some improvement in mobility (which is what they were suppose to excel at) but it shouldn't be increase in power. People can point at DPS all they want but everyone knows its no where near what happens in real battles. I've played corsair, BMs and mech at bosses. They put out high numbers on paper but that only shows at small bosses like anego, GB not at major bosses like Czak, HT etc. Changes that don't make all major bossing parties go NL, NL, NL, bishop, "buff mule", "buff mule" would be really nice.
I don't know what changes the other thief classes need as I never played a high level one to know how they do at bosses. But dual blades and shadowers especially seem a lot more fun to play than NL or BM.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Dudewitbow - 2011-05-23
Lets settle the thief debate by giving Nightlords Advanced Shadow Partner, which would then buff Avenger and Triple Throw Simultaneously. and Add in a Broken Speed Cap and a +20% Speed when in Shadow Partner. no new attacking skill...
tinytrollface.jpg
[1.2.381] The Wind - Locked - 2011-05-23
I just hope they don't screw thieves over like they did with warriors.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Teppi - 2011-05-23
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:If they do that...
Spoiler
...I'm outta here.
seriously love and enjoy these LOL
[1.2.381] The Wind - MetaSeraphim - 2011-05-23
Locked Wrote:I just hope they don't screw thieves over like they did with warriors.
9 out of 10 people agree that the Warrior patch was the best, most fair and most balance.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Alloy - 2011-05-23
White Wrote:TT is a boring and lame looking skill. I'll give you that. It is spammed and as unflashy as it gets. While there is the option of buying nx stars, it's not fair or right to recommend that as a way of dressing up a boring skill.
As for the possibilities listen above, advanced sp being one I can definitely see being implemented, that would bother me. I honestly wouldn't care at all if NL's got a guard like skill and extra hp and avoids and all that, but when it comes down to damage buffing, I get nervous because I know that NL's are already a very strong class, if boring.
No, it's not about flashiness. For all I care, I couldn't care less if main attack is throwing 3 stars or doing a backflip and throwing 3 stars. It's about thinking out of the box. All useful skills we have are reduced to Flash jump, Triple throw (Lucky seven before that), avenger, and drain. And our buffs to Shadow partner and haste (Ok, add booster and maple warrior, but everyone has those by default). That's it. And I'm talking about the whole skillbook here, all four jobs. The rest are either passives or useless stuff.
The only skill that changes the status of monsters (not a passive, Venom is just a damage adder. No gameplay required) is that very same skill you need 30 sp from 4th job. And it's pushing and stunning at a rate, without even almost damage, and an animation delay quite horrendous. The other is taunt, that doesn't change anything gameplay wise, and just makes you kill stuff slower.
That's all there is to our gameplay during all 4 jobs, basically. There is not a single skill that compliments another, like a bowman does when stunning and attacking, for example. Or a warrior rushing and controlling a boss at the corner, while keeping it there thanks to stance. Or a mage, using infinity to pick when's the best time to use the best skill he can think of at the peak of infinity (bit of a stretch here, but nontheless mages can work around with the rest of skills). We have nothing more than holding a key at bosses, and flash jumping at training.
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-23
Alloy Wrote:No, it's not about flashiness. For all I care, I couldn't care less if main attack is throwing 3 stars or doing a backflip and throwing 3 stars. It's about thinking out of the box. All useful skills we have are reduced to Flash jump, Triple throw (Lucky seven before that), avenger, and drain. And our buffs to Shadow partner and haste (Ok, add booster and maple warrior, but everyone has those by default). That's it. And I'm talking about the whole skillbook here, all four jobs. The rest are either passives or useless stuff.
The only skill that changes the status of monsters (not a passive, Venom is just a damage adder. No gameplay required) is that very same skill you need 30 sp from 4th job. And it's pushing and stunning at a rate, without even almost damage, and an animation delay quite horrendous. The other is taunt, that doesn't change anything gameplay wise, and just makes you kill stuff slower.
That's all there is to our gameplay during all 4 jobs, basically. There is not a single skill that compliments another, like a bowman does when stunning and attacking, for example. Or a warrior rushing and controlling a boss at the corner, while keeping it there thanks to stance. Or a mage, using infinity to pick when's the best time to use the best skill he can think of at the peak of infinity (bit of a stretch here, but nontheless mages can work around with the rest of skills). We have nothing more than holding a key at bosses, and flash jumping at training.
Phoenix is great and all but I think you forget about where we train at the later game. By the time we get phoenix (because we NEED SE, NEED Hurricane, NEED Expert) we're over at lhc where stun doesn't work. As for pushing, since no one maxes Dragons Breath or your ninja thing, they do almost the same dmg, but yours pushes mobs away from front and back. You also get a PASSIVE DoT (we need to use inferno to get our DoT) that lasts LONGER and does almost TRIPLE the damage that ours does. If you don't think venom is valuable, i'm sorry, because it certainly adds significant damage at bosses with high hp. I see 50k+ constantly from NL's poison.
You guys can jump around and fj and attack whereas BM's need to literally stand still and can't pot unless we stop our dpm, while NL's can pot between TT's with relatively minor drop in dpm.
I guess what i'm getting at is that while NL's have a bunch of useless skills, the useful skills they have are ample enough to make them one of the best bossing classes in the game still. As such, i'm hesitant to endorse more skills. That said, i'm very comfortable with NL's getting skills that don't contribute to their dpm in any meaningful way. Spd cap raised to 180? Sure, you guys are supposed to be the fastest. Advanced FJ that boosts distance jumped by 25 or 50%? Cool. A passive skill that makes you kb mobs twice as far as normal? Ok. Advanced Shadow Partner that nullifies 15% of recieved damage, lasts twice as long, doesn't require a rock, and boosts hp by 30%? Seems somewhat reasonable. Concentrate-like skill? NO!
[1.2.381] The Wind - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-05-23
I think our (NL's) argument the whole time is that we agreed that NL's don't need more damage (even though they're mediocre in that aspect despite all the funded NL's you see). And as I've said earlier, there's so little synergy amongst our skills that it's almost pathetic people think NL's are still a good class.