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+--- Thread: [1.2.381] The Wind (/showthread.php?tid=42033)
[1.2.381] The Wind - squirrely - 2011-05-22
JoeTang is correct about the marksmen thing. We're still a weaker version of the Bowmaster because our "mobbing abilities" aren't exactly what it should be. 1v1, nexon should leave alone because bowmaster should be better in 1v1. But when it comes to mobbing, it they don't change pierce, marksmen will be behind on both.
Get ready for a wall of text.
Let's first look at all the marksmen updates.
From the beginning of 4th job:
-Snipe's 100k/10 sec and pierce being 2sec and dc'ing when it breaks damage cap.
-Snipe's 200k/5 sec and pierce can hit higher (still useless considering how skeles are only 85k hp)
-Pierce becomes 1sec charge (the slight "lag" before it starts to charge total to over 1 sec)
-Big Bang: Ultimate Strafe, Snipe 999k
-Chaos patch: Bow formula is only 0.05 less than xbow. Snipe becomes nerf for the weaker MM majority (even for the well funded, it eventually is limited by the damage cap, where hurricane can scale to be better as long as it does enough per arrow to beat 4m in 5 sec: unlikely but still plausible)
The math for bowmaster still beating marksmen with 900%x4 snipe:
normal FA: (8.333 arrows x (8.333 x 40)= 11.66 x 5 sec = 58 arrows = 69k
advanced FA(8.333 arrows x (8.333 x 60)= 13.33 x 5 sec = 66 arrows = 60k
They can pot while using hurricane so its definitely possible to shoot that.
Want to count snipe lag too? That just adds more into hurricane's favor.
How about ultimate strafe + snipe? Add the timing errors that hurricane can basically ignore now due to pot while shooting.
Under easily done scenarios: 800 arrows (60% advanced FA) x 220% = 176,000%
Under PERFECT scenarios: 12 snipes + 71 ultimate strafes = (900x4)x 12 + (71 x 6) x 230%= 43,200% +97,980%= 141,180%
Despite all the things marksmen have gotten, all of our skills have less potential than hurricane.
I remember reading that hurricane is good up to mobs of 3.
This makes sense, just like how MM's are better off with ult strafe+ snipe until mobs are 3+.
So both bowmen needs to mob a 3+ mobs, ok thats cool, but we all can agree that BM still has the advantage before 3+ mobs. As I said early BM should be better 1v1 and since 1v1 is better in less than mobs of 3 situation, BM should be better in mobs of less than 3.
Now here's the problem with piercing arrow.
33 pierce/min vs 88 inferno/min
Inferno on top, pierce under it-
On one mob:
600% x 88 + (140% x 60) = 61,200
1150% x 33 = 37,950
On two mobs:
61,200 x 2 = 122,400
1150% x 33 + (1380% x 33) = 83,490
On three mobs:
61,200 x 3 = 183,600
1150% x 33 + (1380% x 33) + (1656% x 33) = 138,138
Sure we won't use it on mobs less than 3, but that's not the point.
On four mobs:
61,200 x 4 = 244,800
1150% x 33 + (1380% x 33) + (1656% x 33) + (1987.2 x 33) = 203,715
On five mobs:
61,200 x 5 = 306,000
1150% x 33 + (1380% x 33) + (1656% x 33) + (1987.2 x 33) + (2384.64 x 33) = 282,408
On six mobs:
61,200 x 6 = 367,200
1150% x 33 + (1380% x 33) + (1656% x 33) + (1987.2 x 33) + (2384.64 x 33) + (2861.568 x 33) = 376,839
We need a mob of at least 6 to beat inferno's theoretical dpm.
This has a point because pierce's effectiveness is questionable which causes the pierce's actual dpm to vary too much while inferno's actual dpm is closer to the theoretical dpm because inferno will always shoot with the press of a button.
Get hit during pierce charge? Charge again, take more time.
Not close to or in front of the monsters? Don't hit the ones in the back. Inferno has AoE + guaranteed DoT.
Normal mob count for any maps: Low enough to require dragons breath or might as well use 1v1 attacks which makes BM better for this situation.
Push the mobs in order to gather a pierce efficient mob? Almost dead already, might as well make dragons breath our main mobbing move.
MM's won't even be able to pull off that many pierce because we must use dragons breath to gather the mobs to be effective.
The double jump is more effective for 1v1 playstyle. Why? Hurricane requires BM's to stand still or hurri-walk, give them double jump and they become very effective in any map.
MM's? No. Why? Look at the marksmen video posted earlier
Notice how the MM used his 1v1 skills most of the time. This reinforces that the game is more 1v1 oriented thus BM's have the advantage.
When the MM did use pierce it wasn't the best choice to use. Sure we can blame bad control, but its not just control. If he used dragons breath it would push the mob back and then he would have to walk and charge. Ultimate inferno would have dished out more dpm because BM can press and it fires, thus the BM mobs better in this case. If the MM used double jump after dragons breath, he can't charge pierce and he could possibly touch the mob.
For a mobbing class, we aren't that good at mobbing when we can.
Possibilities to fix such problem? Easy fix is these 3 steps.
1-Make pierce charge quicker, and/or charge while jumping
2-Don't break pierce after getting hit
3-Can pot while we charge (like hurricane can)
4-Make pierce stronger, either direct %damage (1150% to a higher value) or increase the 1.2x multiplier that occurs when it goes through each monster
Medium fix: Make some mobbing friendly maps that are actually mob friendly (spawns that become heavy like the ones seen in map: Sahel 3).
Hard fix: fix all maps/ spawns to be better suited for mobbing.
Our mobbing should rival hurricane since we are the "mobbing"
I'm not saying BM shouldn't get ultimate inferno because bowmen need these to keep up with all the different classes.
Pierce should have a real improvement and not only hit 2 more monsters.
Also snipe's cooldown should be client-sided. The 5 second charge is like 5-8 seconds.
I definitely like the direction that the two classes are going though.
There will be noticable differences if this is to come through.
Bowmen will actually have two very different subclasses like thief's Nightlord and Shadower.
I hope Nexon could read this and do what they can.
[1.2.381] The Wind - JoeTang - 2011-05-22
Polantaris Wrote:Yeah, most people will. But meanwhile, a majority of 4th jobs aren't even properly guided. A lot of guides are "Whatever you get/feel is needed" or "You have a choice between X and Y". That's exactly what will happen in future guides. With every skill being useful, there's not going to be a set guide, it's going to be different based on playstyles, what people want to use, and how people intend to play. The point is to make no skill useless and therefore no skill blatantly skippable, which nothing is anymore from as much as I can tell. There's no skill where you look at it and say "Ah, that's completely useless I don't have to bother with it." At some point, people WILL have to make choices, and THAT'S the point. Prior to this update, EVERY class was predefined by guides by players "Go with X, Y isn't wonderful so wait until the end, Z is useless, skip it." Z is out of the equation, yet you don't have the points to be able to go with every X and Y, so what exactly are people going to do? Make a choice. Regardless of if it's from a guide or not, by Lv.200, every player WON'T be exactly the same, unlike currently.
When everyone uses X to attack, and Y and Z do no actual to the way you play, you pick whichever gives you the most damage. There are no skills except Ultimate Inferno that affect "play style". You either use Hurricane or you use Ultimate Inferno. There's no "max x first to suit playstyle A, and max y first to suit play style B" because it doesn't exist. "Play style" only applies to a job that have a large variety of skills or application. That doesn't exist for Bow Masters, and hardly for Marksmen because they both get two attacking skills that are usually maxed first. Every skill Archers get that isn't Hurricane, Pierce, Ultimate Inferno, Ultimate Strafe are buffs to damage. The only importance is which ones give more damage because it's literally meaningless to get them in an order that makes you weaker unless you're just poor and can't afford the books, or you're naive enough to believe that an increase in avoid, or more damage from Elite Puppet will make you train faster than actual damage buffs.
squirrely Wrote:-snip-
Exactly, Marksmen have boatloads of problems. Your numbers for Pierce aren't exact, but the same theory applies to anyone realistically trying to charge Pierce. Combine the window of error (where a 100ms overshoot is a 6% drop in DPS, and 100ms undershoot is a ~10% drop in DPS), and system/server lag, plus getting hit contribute to failing to meet these demands compared to Ultimate Inferno or any other mob skill in the game that isn't pomegranatety Big Bang where you just hold the button and pomegranate dies fast, and you're extremely inefficient.
And Snipe lag is spitting in Marksmen's face when AFA is instant.
The only real problem I have with Ultimate Inferno is it's a rehash like Ultimate Strafe. Shows no creativity. It could at least slow monsters, or push, or something. Not just do a longer DoT.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Polantaris - 2011-05-22
JoeTang Wrote:When everyone uses X to attack, and Y and Z do no actual to the way you play, you pick whichever gives you the most damage. There are no skills except Ultimate Inferno that affect "play style". You either use Hurricane or you use Ultimate Inferno. There's no "max x first to suit playstyle A, and max y first to suit play style B" because it doesn't exist. "Play style" only applies to a job that have a large variety of skills or application. That doesn't exist for Bow Masters, and hardly for Marksmen because they both get two attacking skills that are usually maxed first. Every skill Archers get that isn't Hurricane, Pierce, Ultimate Inferno, Ultimate Strafe are buffs to damage. The only importance is which ones give more damage because it's literally meaningless to get them in an order that makes you weaker unless you're just poor and can't afford the books, or you're naive enough to believe that an increase in avoid, or more damage from Elite Puppet will make you train faster than actual damage buffs.
I guarantee you based on what skill you don't put into will effect whether or not people will want you in a party.
Besides, this isn't JUST Bowmasters. Someone else mentioned that Mages also have this now. They have all useful skills but not enough points to max every single one. I wouldn't be surprised if Thieves and Pirates get the same changes. They (Nexon) don't want people playing all exactly the same, and I don't blame them. The game became a formula for just about everything a long time ago, it's about time they added potential for change. Back when the game first started, if you put points into certain skills, you were a moron. Now, it might have been a good idea not to follow the guide exactly.
Outside of MS, most skill point guides for MMOs weren't ever meant to be completely followed 100% anyway. In MS, it made sense because the skills left out were useless, but in other games they typically made the (non-drone) player think "Why would he/she do that?", and still make your own decisions. That never happened in MS because the skills people skipped out on, they skipped out on for a reason, because they were useless. That's not the case anymore.
Look, I'm not saying that people aren't going to follow guides to the letter, because a majority of people seem to rather have things spelt out for them instead of figuring it out for themselves, but meanwhile now the guy who thinks independently, just may not have the same build as you or me, and that alone is the best change you can possibly put into this game.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Takebacker - 2011-05-22
After thinking it over a bit more, i'm not entirely sure nexon won't have a tough time with thieves and pirates. I think they left them last because on top of mages and archers desperately needing changes, all of the revamped classes so far have clear and well established roles between each other. Heroes for damage, paladins for defense/support, drks for a mix with some support thrown in. Bishops are pure support, F/Ps rely on DoT and more strategy/timing, I/Ls focus on doing damage through more fluid attacking with their elements. BMs for 1v1, MMs for mobs.
Thieves and pirates are NOTHING like that. One is either ranged or not, with some overlap as far as their proficiency with 1v1 and mobs. Nexon might have some trouble because there is no clear role between each other within the class itself.
[1.2.381] The Wind - cronnoponno - 2011-05-22
Thiefs have a darned good role, called avoidability. It doesn't support anyone else but themselves, but should thieves really be supporting other people? THIEVES?!? Make the avoid mechanics better for thieves.
I think they deserve to break the speed cap. Their weapon speed should be able to exceed the cap as well.
With pirates, I think you should be able to mount while transformed, and that transform turns into a transformed state as well(even if it's a cs equip, I think they really only need to make the transformed effect look like the hogs and the dragon). This is for ladders mainly, because mounts are still technically faster.
I think they should pirates back into the cooldown wagon, where they are far superior to everything during their charging times, however inferior when they're not at their potential, same with the battleship and it's hp formula(or cooldown, whatever Corsair's want). Add in a few new skills, put super xform in 3rd job, regular xform in second job, and make a whole new 4th job transform, make summersault kick have the ''upper stab'' effect and increase it's speed. Let dragon strike be air-castable, put snatch and time leap to master level 20(seriously, 30 sp in these skills is such a waste), take away energy orbs mob formula. Add in a couple of new animations(they could make energy blast look A LOT cooler) and you got yourself a revamped pirate.
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-22
So, firstly, it seems there's a larger deal of frustration in terms of BM's mobbing ability vs MM's. All I can say to that is that as a 184 BM, I'm not going to be getting Ult.Inferno. We need to gather mobs of what, I think I read 5+ for it to be more powerful than regular old cane + afa? And without something like dragons breath? No, that doesn't seem like a good training strategy, and definitely not a good allocation of 10 precious sp.
Imo allowing pierce to bypass the dmg cap would be a mistake. Firstly, it would allow a skill to bypass the dmg cap and WOULD be exploited by hackers. Secondly, with the amazing ability of pierce to scale to tremendous damage through mobs, it wouldn't be unusual to see MM's going up to 2m+ dmg at the end of their pierces, I know MM's that are capable of that. And that would bother me. If the damage cap was lifted to say 1.5m or something for everyone (or even just pierce) I think that may be acceptable. There are videos of players hitting the cap already. However, changing the cap doesn't affect classes like mine very much at all just because we do lots and lots of little damage, as opposed to, previously, mages.
Additionally, in the Chaos patch for gms, the accuracy penalty is being reduced so it's not quite as ridiculous as it is now. You're two levels below the monster you want to kill? Bummer, go somewhere else, the 10% miss rate (in a game where multiple hits is the way nexon is building skills) is going to hurt training time a noticeable bit. The missrate will go down to 1-2% from what i've heard, per level. That will hopefully allow those sins and other well funded in the early game classes to train more effectively.
As for guides, when I used to look them up, and this was like a year ago, they all said, "Get cane, get se, get whatever you have books for excluding these crappy skills x, y, z." My guess for post Jump! will be that guides will be more structured along the two main routes; bossing, grinding at mobs. If bossing a lot (as I do) then Ult.Strafe isn't desired. Post Jump! every sp will be coveted. Spending 10 on a skill that doesn't improve training efficiency as a bosser isn't desired. Moreover, the higher I got, the less I grinded. At 140, zak and czak opened up. Regular zakum gives amazing exp. At 160, ht and cht (didn't cht at 160 tho, obviously). Now at 180 I can pb and toad. Zak twice a day, ht solo and toad take up more than enough time and give me plenty of exp. And I'll be saving 10 sp to put into the more important late game skills such as Spirit Link and AFA and IS.
squirrely Wrote:I'm not saying BM shouldn't get ultimate inferno because bowmen need these to keep up with all the different classes.
Pierce should have a real improvement and not only hit 2 more monsters.
Well, I like your perspective. While I'd be completely fine without Ult.Inferno, i'm game for MM's getting a buff to their mobbing and us keeping our rather strong new mobbing enhancement.
JoeTang Wrote:The only real problem I have with Ultimate Inferno is it's a rehash like Ultimate Strafe. Shows no creativity. It could at least slow monsters, or push, or something. Not just do a longer DoT.
If the skill is stronger, I don't care about aesthetics. If I was looking for a really pretty game full of amazing creativity I wouldn't play Maple.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Takebacker - 2011-05-22
When has pierce ever been exploited by anything? Damage hacks don't exist.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Locked - 2011-05-22
Takebacker Wrote:When has pierce ever been exploited by anything? Damage hacks don't exist.
There used to be one for Evans.
But yeah, generally speaking it doesn't exist.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Luxeraph - 2011-05-22
Takebacker Wrote:When has pierce ever been exploited by anything? Damage hacks don't exist.
I think that even if they existed wouldn't hackers just use it with classes that have fast multihit attacks IE: BM, NL and sair.
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-22
I don't want to turn this isn't a hacking discussion. Afaik, hackers use things like no delay hacking where the spd of the attack doesn't really matter. I see BaM's farming TT30 at rextons whenever I walk to ht and they attack faster than I do w/ hurricane.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Takebacker - 2011-05-22
Hacking discussion isn't really against the rules here unless you're distributing them or something like that.
No delay for the most part doesn't exist, except for teleport mastery. I only wanted to point out that pierce being hackable isn't going to be possible. MAYBE instant full charge hacks, but if it hasn't happened yet it might not happen at all.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Luxeraph - 2011-05-22
Also don't MM need some what good equips to hit cap with pierce? And (I'm not sure but is what I think) don't hackers avoid funding their hacking accs due to possibility of being banned and losing all the money put into it?
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-22
Takebacker Wrote:Hacking discussion isn't really against the rules here unless you're distributing them or something like that.
No delay for the most part doesn't exist, except for teleport mastery. I only wanted to point out that pierce being hackable isn't going to be possible. MAYBE instant full charge hacks, but if it hasn't happened yet it might not happen at all.
Was more trying to avoid a discussion of hacks as it isn't really relevant to the thread. Go to Rextons and watch the bams or w/e instantly teleporting to the mobs and sitting on their shoulder hitting REALLY quickly sorta like cane, then vaccing up the mesos and I would assume any books that drop.
As for hacking pierce, that's not what I was suggesting. I was thinking of the possibility of hackers finding out whatever coding they need to be able to use the loophole that an MM engages in order to also hit higher than the dmg cap.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Takebacker - 2011-05-22
Extraction threads rarely end up being constantly relevant to the actual topic.
Especially by page 21.The being able to hit over the damage cap is probably just an exception in the code. It wouldn't really matter anyway since they have to be funded to actually reach that high, which a hacker wouldn't risk doing.
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-22
Probably so. Especially since apparently Dan quit (idk where he went) and Allan was banned. No more godly khainian MM's afaik.
[1.2.381] The Wind - danielcatu - 2011-05-22
I would be happy atleast with 1 wind archer video... oh well we got new skills thats good enough
[1.2.381] The Wind - Locked - 2011-05-22
danielcatu Wrote:I would be happy atleast with 1 wind archer video... oh well we got new skills thats good enough
[video=youtube;EBY-hJF4Elw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBY-hJF4Elw[/video]
[1.2.381] The Wind - Alloy - 2011-05-22
lol Tespia exp rates.
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-22
70k?! Is that little blue crystal like buff thing a huge dmg buff or are all sub level 100 WA's able to hit that high? o.o
[1.2.381] The Wind - Takebacker - 2011-05-22
Cubes should still be free in tespia so his range is probably just really high.