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+--- Thread: [1.2.381] The Wind (/showthread.php?tid=42033)
[1.2.381] The Wind - MariettaRC - 2011-05-21
Just adding on that I saw a 5 m.att level 90 shoe for like... 35m?
[1.2.381] The Wind - Spaghetti - 2011-05-22
Wait, this thread is about the new archer revamp? I thought it was about m.atk vs w.atk
[1.2.381] The Wind - Abysseon - 2011-05-22
Takebacker Wrote:@ above: I'm aware, but the entire string of logic isn't terribly relevant because e.weapons aren't the best weapon for bishops. (the class this argument was originally about)
Well , it was just a bad move on JMS's part to create weapons as a way of 'rebalancing'
the game.
I don't think it will happen again now that kms has introduced its own answers balancing.
TamilTiger1 Wrote:There is something else going on here. His illusion step is only level 7 giving him 12% to avoid. You can see in the stat windows that it only adds the % to the avoid you already have. It does not work like the thiefs shadowshifter. Either those mobs have really weak accuracy or there is something else going on. It definetly doesn't have anything to do with illusion step.
*edit: No, it was due to Illusion Step.
Vid where he cancels Illusion Step in the beginning:
[video=youtube;YF8HgrDnTfc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF8HgrDnTfc[/video]
There could be more to the skill but its the reason for the high avoid although he still gets hit during its duration.
The first vid's MISS scenario was most likely due to luck as well.
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-22
Spaghetti Wrote:Wait, this thread is about the new archer revamp? I thought it was about m.atk vs w.atk
Well, I think it's clear to most people that the Archer Jump! update > mage and warrior updates. Additionally, the Archer Jump! update makes BM's and MM's extremely powerful.
EDIT: To your edit Abysseon, notice how his range goes up just due to spirit link: phoenix. 32k to 37k w/ illusion step and concentrate. To 38k w/ dragon drink you buy in leafre. to 40.6k w/ level 4 spirit link: phoenix when he pulls out the bird. ^_^
[1.2.381] The Wind - TamilTiger1 - 2011-05-22
There we go, that last video seems more reasonable. Thats more like how my BM's miss work with similar stats. The first one is either 1/100 tries he did or being extremely lucky and then posting only those misses. Thanks for the other videos. It seem to show how it really work instead of the near 100% miss overpowered version.
[1.2.381] The Wind - JoeTang - 2011-05-22
White Wrote:Well, I think it's clear to most people that the Archer Jump! update > mage and warrior updates. Additionally, the Archer Jump! update makes BM's and MM's extremely powerful.
Marksmen didn't get anything that makes them stronger except the critical rate and ignore defense on Snipe which is a joke. That's about 1.13x stronger on a skill they can only use once every five seconds.
I think everyone underestimates the Mage update still. Did you know that both Ice/Lightning and Fire/Poison Archmages still have higher %/s than Bow Masters, despite Hurricane + Advanced Final Attack being completely broken?
I'm surprised more Marksmen aren't outraged at how pathetically garbage Snipe is, especially compared to a Bow Master. If they think 900%x4 every 5 seconds compares to doing 1.68x more damage with AFA, they're horribly deluded, and if they haven't realised that Mist Eruption is Snipe but everything fucking better, well damn.
God, I hope they nerf the pomegranate out of AFA because it's a retarded idea, and that they don't patch Thieves for another 6 months because that'd be hilarious.
[1.2.381] The Wind - octopusprime - 2011-05-22
Baklava Wrote:What, I main a Paladin and I'm out-damaged by every other class in the game except Bishops and the Pirates, and am reduced to being a Combat Orders mule for bosses/partying/training...but people say that Paladins should be weak because they have super tanking abilities.
Why is it different for Bishops?
Laughingathowyouevidentallyfailtoseethedegreeofthedifferenceatall.jpg
Let me make you a chart.
Bishops damage:XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Paladins damage:XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
they both can be less than many other classes but that does not make the two have a comparable situation.
And this is imo the worst update. The mage one went too far but i thought it was really solid conceptually (with the exception of just making bishops like every other class and no changes to heal exp or something similiar) This one just sucks on concept as well as balance. Spirit link is the best thing in this patch.
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-22
JoeTang Wrote:Marksmen didn't get anything that makes them stronger except the critical rate and ignore defense on Snipe which is a joke. That's about 1.13x stronger on a skill they can only use once every five seconds.
I think everyone underestimates the Mage update still. Did you know that both Ice/Lightning and Fire/Poison Archmages still have higher %/s than Bow Masters, despite Hurricane + Advanced Final Attack being completely broken?
I'm surprised more Marksmen aren't outraged at how pathetically garbage Snipe is, especially compared to a Bow Master. If they think 900%x4 every 5 seconds compares to doing 1.68x more damage with AFA, they're horribly deluded, and if they haven't realised that Mist Eruption is Snipe but everything fucking better, well damn.
God, I hope they nerf the pomegranate out of AFA because it's a retarded idea, and that they don't patch Thieves for another 6 months because that'd be hilarious.
I'd say Spirit Link: Frostprey, and it's 40% hp/mp, 30% def/mdef boost and especially it's 20% damage buff is a pretty big buff.
As far as snipe being garbage, I think you're quite mistaken. 900% x4 every 5 seconds is not bad, it's quite good. Not as good as AFA (which is completely amazing, and being a biased BM, hope it stays unchanged) but still nothing to frown at.
[1.2.381] The Wind - JoeTang - 2011-05-22
White Wrote:I'd say Spirit Link: Frostprey, and it's 40% hp/mp, 30% def/mdef boost and especially it's 20% damage buff is a pretty big buff.
As far as snipe being garbage, I think you're quite mistaken. 900% x4 every 5 seconds is not bad, it's quite good. Not as good as AFA (which is completely amazing, and being a biased BM, hope it stays unchanged) but still nothing to frown at.
My bad. Marksmen still suck the big plantain compared to Bow Masters.
Snipe is garbage because it almost as much DPS with Ultimate as a Bow Master with maxed Hurricane and no AFA, and Mist Eruption pisses all over it in concept and design.
[1.2.381] The Wind - MariettaRC - 2011-05-22
JoeTang Wrote:My bad. Marksmen still suck the big plantain compared to Bow Masters.
If Marksmen also had AFA, what would your reaction be to that? (Not a biased question at all, I'm actually curious)
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-22
JoeTang Wrote:My bad. Marksmen still suck the big plantain compared to Bow Masters.
BM's are supposed to be 1v1 and MM's are supposed to be mobbers. You mention the degree of overkill being an issue when comparing the two classes damage on mobs. Now, where I train when not bossing is at Van Leon Castle, where mobs have millions of hp and overkill isn't an issue at all because of the damage cap. Knowing lhc will be nerfed to garbage by Jump, we also know it'll be replaced by Dark Ereve and Monster Park, where the mobs have millions of hp and overkill won't be an issue either.
Having seen a couple vids of Dark Ereve, mobbing 6 monsters into a pile is very doable.
Monster park is more limited.
It seems to me that you want MM's to be equal to BM's in 1v1 when that's not how the classes are designed.
I cannot find it on the site but I do recall several years ago that on Maplestory's main website, they mentioned that choosing a bowmaster would result in a class that shot faster and was better at killing single targets. Choosing a marksman would result in a class that shot slower but was better at killing groups of monsters.
This concept seems to have been a bit lost in the Chaos update but is then set straight again here in the Jump update.
MariaColette Wrote:If Marksmen also had AFA, what would your reaction be to that? (Not a biased question at all, I'm actually curious)
I know this isn't addressed to me but AFA wouldn't play a very big role for an MM and would likely be ignored until 19x. MM's shoot a lot of arrows but they don't fire a lot of attacks which is what activates FA. Each arrow a BM fires is also an attack and thus will have a 60% chance of activating AFA. Averaging it out, that comes to 300 more arrows a minute, assuming the BM doesn't get hit or disrupted in some way. MM's on the other hand only have FA activate on average much much much less often. I don't have the right stats but it's like 20 times, as opposed to the 200 times it activates currently for BM's. So AFA would only change that a little, like 30 activations. The added dpm from that would be so insignificant compared to things like illusion step or spirit link or even elite puppet that i'm sure most MM's would leave AFA (if they had it) until the end of their leveling.
[1.2.381] The Wind - JoeTang - 2011-05-22
MariaColette Wrote:If Marksmen also had AFA, what would your reaction be to that? (Not a biased question at all, I'm actually curious)
AFA would raise Marksmen DPS by about 200%/s (4030.32%/s to 4229.1%/s). i.e. it's really bad.
White Wrote:BM's are supposed to be 1v1 and MM's are supposed to be mobbers. You mention the degree of overkill being an issue when comparing the two classes damage on mobs. Now, where I train when not bossing is at Van Leon Castle, where mobs have millions of hp and overkill isn't an issue at all because of the damage cap. Knowing lhc will be nerfed to garbage by Jump, we also know it'll be replaced by Dark Ereve and Monster Park, where the mobs have millions of hp and overkill won't be an issue either.
Having seen a couple vids of Dark Ereve, mobbing 6 monsters into a pile is very doable.
Monster park is more limited.
It seems to me that you want MM's to be equal to BM's in 1v1 when that's not how the classes are designed.
I cannot find it on the site but I do recall several years ago that on Maplestory's main website, they mentioned that choosing a bowmaster would result in a class that shot faster and was better at killing single targets. Choosing a marksman would result in a class that shot slower but was better at killing groups of monsters.
This concept seems to have been a bit lost in the Chaos update but is then set straight again here in the Jump update.
The problem is that the most significant portions of the game are based on single target damage. That's why everyone cares so much about DPS. Bow Masters do as much DPS on one monster as Pierce can do on 3. Pierce can also be severely limited by the damage cap, still, can it not? It's certainly feasible to hit 1m on some of the latter mobs, but if it can bypass the damage cap, then whatever.
After Chaos, Dark Ereve is like what 160~170+? Monster Park has somewhat limited access as well, and the mob spawn certainly seems limited. I just severely dislike how Pierce works. It's a parallel to how Assassins in 2nd job can do so much damage, but are forced to train on monsters that they OHKO because anything higher that they could still theoretically OHKO they will miss on. Pierce can kill monsters faster with the amount of DPS it outputs, but you're forced to wait by charging, and Snipe is just plain stupid.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Locked - 2011-05-22
MariaColette Wrote:If Marksmen also had AFA, what would your reaction be to that? (Not a biased question at all, I'm actually curious)
Pointless.
500*1.6 = 800 arrows a minute. 300 Extra FA arrows.
Considering most crossbows are Normal 6, that means the delay for Strafe after booster is 720ms. 60,000/720ms = 83 strafes per minute
83 * .6 = 49 extra arrows.
6*83 = 498 + 49 = 547 arrows per minute.
[1.2.381] The Wind - JoeTang - 2011-05-22
Maybe give Snipe some passive bonus or a weaker Advanced Homing effect that someone mentioned earlier. Or you know, do the reasonable thing and nerf Advanced Final Attack. I didn't even consider that it gives +30 WATK until just now compared to Marksmen.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Locked - 2011-05-22
Yo joe.
![[Image: MapleStory-BasilMarket-Screen-202148.jpg]](http://static.basilmarket.com/screen/MapleStory-BasilMarket-Screen-202148.jpg)
[1.2.381] The Wind - ShinkuDragon - 2011-05-22
just WHY can't sacrifice do that?
[1.2.381] The Wind - Baklava - 2011-05-22
Nevermind! No more fire feeding!
[1.2.381] The Wind - Polantaris - 2011-05-22
Late comment: Thieves haven't gotten their Jump patch yet, have they? If they haven't, I don't understand the complaints... You're complaining that your unaltered class, that will be altered, is weaker than the class that has already been altered. It's like you're making Purple, and complaining that Red isn't Purple when you haven't added the Blue yet. (Terrible analogy, oh well)
In regards to the "I can't max everything anymore!" comments, I think that's the point. What's the point in having every single player being EXACTLY the same in every single way? It's boring. Now, you have to make important choices because while every skill is useful, you can't have every skill. Every player will have to make a choice at some point, and that's exactly the point in doing something like this. Now when you have a group of same class Lv.200s, they won't all be exactly the same, and it also adds some flare to parties. You'll be able to split yourself apart from others of your class because you have useful skill A maxed while your friend has useful skill B maxed, now you're both useful in the same party because you have different skills.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Locked - 2011-05-22
Polantaris Wrote:In regards to the "I can't max everything anymore!" comments, I think that's the point. What's the point in having every single player being EXACTLY the same in every single way? It's boring. Now, you have to make important choices because while every skill is useful, you can't have every skill. Every player will have to make a choice at some point, and that's exactly the point in doing something like this. Now when you have a group of same class Lv.200s, they won't all be exactly the same, and it also adds some flare to parties. You'll be able to split yourself apart from others of your class because you have useful skill A maxed while your friend has useful skill B maxed, now you're both useful in the same party because you have different skills.
Er.. No.
People often need builds to guide them, people never need to make "choices". In the end there will be an optimized and best build around and everyone will follow it.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Polantaris - 2011-05-22
Locked Wrote:Er.. No.
People often need builds to guide them, people never need to make "choices". In the end there will be an optimized and best build around and everyone will follow it.
Yeah, most people will. But meanwhile, a majority of 4th jobs aren't even properly guided. A lot of guides are "Whatever you get/feel is needed" or "You have a choice between X and Y". That's exactly what will happen in future guides. With every skill being useful, there's not going to be a set guide, it's going to be different based on playstyles, what people want to use, and how people intend to play. The point is to make no skill useless and therefore no skill blatantly skippable, which nothing is anymore from as much as I can tell. There's no skill where you look at it and say "Ah, that's completely useless I don't have to bother with it." At some point, people WILL have to make choices, and THAT'S the point. Prior to this update, EVERY class was predefined by guides by players "Go with X, Y isn't wonderful so wait until the end, Z is useless, skip it." Z is out of the equation, yet you don't have the points to be able to go with every X and Y, so what exactly are people going to do? Make a choice. Regardless of if it's from a guide or not, by Lv.200, every player WON'T be exactly the same, unlike currently.