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Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - Dusk - 2009-01-23
Rusty, read the edited part of my post. How is 6500 damage going to kill everybody? Only ranged classes without HB would die, exactly as you said.
HP washing should not be an option. It shouldn't exist. If you really want to put damage on a threshold where only washed ranged classes can survive, fix the way we increase our HP. More opportunities to scroll gear for HP, higher defense values, and more base HP on higher level equips to encourage the use of them should be the answer.
It looks to me like Shadowers just spam Boomerang Step and go into Dark Sight when he gets close. That's what the Shadower I BFed with today did. I don't get why that's risky o_o it's just slow.
iFrancisco Wrote:Both of you have made some interesting and worthwhile points. I would have to say though that 5k KB is still far too little. Last thing I would want (I suppose this is for me personally) is to be able to go up to BF and spam SB and afk (wait, I would be like a range character at Anego now -.-). Any decently leveled 4th job ranged character can hit over 5k very consistently; Maybe a 8-10k KB would fit the bill much better.
If there are complaints about BF as it is now for archers, I can't imagine the complaints when the toad boss comes to GMS with his 13k+ hits; you can't be able to kill every boss efficiently.
Find me an archer with a 5k base min damage range. Actually, find me an archer with a 5k base max damage range - that's calling for at least level 160 with godly equips. Then add in Bigfoot's defense. Archers can't consistently hit 5k on crits unless their stats are godly. I dunno how well NLs do with that, though.
Why would get the toad boss?
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - ยป-Chris-> - 2009-01-23
I have never had a problem soloing BF, or going in a party there on a BM. Unpotted, and mostly stripped it was fine too.
The melee classes I played there however were as good as dead. =(
Other than that I don't really have enough experience to comment.
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - DrRusty - 2009-01-23
Dusk Wrote:Rusty, read the edited part of my post. How is 6500 damage going to kill everybody? Only ranged classes without HB would die, exactly as you said.
HP washing should not be an option. It shouldn't exist. If you really want to put damage on a threshold where only washed ranged classes can survive, fix the way we increase our HP. More opportunities to scroll gear for HP, higher defense values, and more base HP on higher level equips to encourage the use of them should be the answer.
It looks to me like Shadowers just spam Boomerang Step and go into Dark Sight when he gets close. That's what the Shadower I BFed with today did. I don't get why that's risky o_o it's just slow.
Find me an archer with a 5k base min damage range. Actually, find me an archer with a 5k base max damage range - that's calling for at least level 160 with godly equips. Then add in Bigfoot's defense. Archers can't consistently hit 5k on crits unless their stats are godly. I dunno how well NLs do with that, though.
Why would get the toad boss?
1st- I dont want it to be impossible for ranged to survive, just that they need HB to survive. HP washing is up to the person. If you dont wanna HP wash then bring a DK with you.
2nd- Maybe your right, HP washing shouldnt be an option. The thing is, it is an option. It's part of the game we're playing, and it's a very valid point to use when debating something like this. Like I said, you dont need to wash, just add points into HP. Sorry if your damage get lower, but any warrior who needs to add dex to hit stuff won't sympathize with you.
3rd- Sure you can sit and spam BStep til it's dead. It'll just take over 2 hours. That doesn't exactly help paladins or bucs though.
4th- Who said they should be able to consistently knock it back? The whole point behind the 5k touch damage and high knockback damage is to keep him from being pinned, but make his touch damage survivable.
5th- Why do you want to raise his touch damage so high? Just so even HP washed would die? I don't know why you're so anti-HP washed. If you don't want to wash/put points in HP, then thats your own problem. You shouldn't hope to kill off all washed chars just because you don't want/can't afford to wash.
6th- Have you read my "Perfect Maple Boss Fight" thread? I'd like you to go there, look through it, and find someone that said keeping a boss pinned all day long is the best way to make a boss.
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - Dusk - 2009-01-23
You're very bad at reading comprehension. Maybe I should respond to your points individually o_o
Quote:1st- I dont want it to be impossible for ranged to survive, just that they need HB to survive. HP washing is up to the person. If you dont wanna HP wash then bring a DK with you....
6500 damage. Ranged classes raise their HP to 8k with HB for HT. 6500 damage is survivable without HP washing; you just need HB. This is exactly what you're asking for. What part of this are you not understanding?
Quote:2nd- Maybe your right, HP washing shouldnt be an option. The thing is, it is an option. It's part of the game we're playing, and it's a very valid point to use when debating something like this. Like I said, you dont need to wash, just add points into HP. Sorry if your damage get lower, but any warrior who needs to add dex to hit stuff won't sympathize with you.Just because it exists doesn't mean you have to make more reasons for people to do it. HP and accuracy aren't the same thing at all.
1. Warriors don't instantly die when they don't have enough accuracy.
2. Accuracy is much easier to come by, as you've said. You can pot accuracy. Accuracy is basically the missing secondary stat Warriors are missing, since they don't need anything but STR to maximize damage. If a Warrior can't hit something, that's their fault for investing too much in trying to increase their damage. Archers, Pirates, and Thieves all have a secondary stat they need to invest in to wield their higher level weapons. Low HP is a crutch for ranged classes, not another secondary stat.
3. Getting more accuracy does not shove absurd amounts of money at Nexon. No, you can MTS for anything, but someone is paying hundreds of dollars every time for the NX every time someone washes a few hundred HP.
Quote:3rd- Sure you can sit and spam BStep til it's dead. It'll just take over 2 hours. That doesn't exactly help paladins or bucs though.I'm aware of that. 6500 damage is survivable for both Pallys and Bucs.
Quote:4th- Who said they should be able to consistently knock it back? The whole point behind the 5k touch damage and high knockback damage is to keep him from being pinned, but make his touch damage survivable.Again, you keep misinterpreting what I'm trying to say, and it's getting really annoyng. I was responding to iFrancisco's point about 5k KB still being too little. I was arguing that it was not; that yes, you can't consistently KB it with 5k KB.
Quote:5th- Why do you want to raise his touch damage so high? Just so even HP washed would die? I don't know why you're so anti-HP washed. If you don't want to wash/put points in HP, then thats your own problem. You shouldn't hope to kill off all washed chars just because you don't want/can't afford to wash.Read above. KILL THE FUCKING WASHING. It's not because I can't do it, because believe me, I can :f6:
Quote:6th- Have you read my "Perfect Maple Boss Fight" thread? I'd like you to go there, look through it, and find someone that said keeping a boss pinned all day long is the best way to make a boss.I specifically said in an earlier post that I don't want it to be pinnable. I'm not going to bother arguing with you anymore. I spend half of each post correcting you because you can't be bothered to read my entire posts.
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - iFrancisco - 2009-01-23
Dusk Wrote:Find me an archer with a 5k base min damage range. Actually, find me an archer with a 5k base max damage range - that's calling for at least level 160 with godly equips. Then add in Bigfoot's defense. Archers can't consistently hit 5k on crits unless their stats are godly. I dunno how well NLs do with that, though.
Why would get the toad boss?
Oh, maybe I have just seen BMs that are level 140+, but all of them can consistently hit over 5k crits (and some of them are very average). It is not uncommon for their crits to break 10k too, not sure what is so special about the 5k mark. Of course some of the normal hits may not hit over 5k, but is that needed to constantly KB him (I don't know if SOA needs 100% KBing to do that)? I was just saying that 5k might be too low, but of course that is debatable.
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - Dusk - 2009-01-23
iFrancisco Wrote:Oh, maybe I have just seen BMs that are level 140+, but all of them can consistently hit over 5k crits (and some of them are very average). It is not uncommon for their crits to break 10k too, not sure what is so special about the 5k mark. Of course some of the normal hits may not hit over 5k, but is that needed to constantly KB him (I don't know if SOA needs 100% KBing to do that)? I was just saying that 5k might be too low, but of course that is debatable.
Of course their crits are going to be over 5k. Their noncrits aren't. Maybe 6k, to make sure it stays out of their damage range?
It's pretty difficult to hold Bigfoot down without KBing him on your noncrits. That makes up 35% (45% with my BM's 9 SE) of your shots, and a long string of noncrits equals certain doom. So it's pretty difficult, but not impossible.
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - iFrancisco - 2009-01-24
Dusk Wrote:Of course their crits are going to be over 5k. Their noncrits aren't. Maybe 6k, to make sure it stays out of their damage range?
It's pretty difficult to hold Bigfoot down without KBing him on your noncrits. That makes up 35% (45% with my BM's 9 SE) of your shots, and a long string of noncrits equals certain doom. So it's pretty difficult, but not impossible.
Ah ok, that makes sense. I just wasn't sure how SOA affects KBing since it attacks so fast and usually KB animations take longer than the time it takes for 1 arrow to hit.
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - KatanaKiwi - 2009-01-24
nightlords should stop whining, aswell as bowmasters, you guys allready have an entire showa hide-out of bosses wich are mainly for nightlords/bowmasters.. just let heroes and brawlers have their fun with this one for gods sake.. dont be spoiled
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - Chameleonic - 2009-01-25
Dusk Wrote:How much damage should it do? The boss should be aimed at possible for a typical level 130. A 130 Shadower with a regular AP build has about 3500, more or less HP at that level with a 100 HP pendant. I dunno how much HP Bucs have, but I assume it's about double, and Warriors and Mages have more survivability, so I think a upper limit of about 7000, a little less with defense, should be reasonable. Maybe 6500 to be safe. This is enough for any 130 non-ranged class to survive it, while ranged classes cannot survive without HB and 4100 base HP.
You do remember that an Archer wont get 4100 base Hp till about lv 165...thats a long way from lv 130.
I agree with Isaac's comment that no monster (Boss or otherwise, my addition
) should do more than 3500 damage.
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - summer - 2009-01-26
KatanaKiwi Wrote:nightlords should stop whining, aswell as bowmasters, you guys allready have an entire showa hide-out of bosses wich are mainly for nightlords/bowmasters.. just let heroes and brawlers have their fun with this one for gods sake.. dont be spoiled
then like Dusk said... DO NOT PUT IT IN ALL 8 MAPS!
put it in some maps that's not in the way to CWK! or do some jumpquest style thing like the pillars of doom... where you can actually get AROUND it
it appearing in a crossroad map with you stuck in the corner = certain death no matter how you look at it... it's IMPOSSIBLE to survive it. and BOOM 7% gone...
and about the KB damage, ~130, a BM would probably spend 2-3 levels on SE at least, so their main attack, hurricane, isn't high enough to even do 5k... i do 6k sometimes, but on weaker monsters... BF, i do rarely 5k... sure it's fast... but the chances of seeing a series of non-crit for 3-4 seconds is quite common to me >.>
so basically:
Exp: whatever it is, i don't care... as long as it's 1mil+ exp
HP: eh... it takes me ~50 mins to kill it... non-apple + dieing 7 times... + puppeting + running away all the time when puppet fails... but i guess it's okay >.>
KB: 5k ish should be fine i guess...
Damage: AT MOST 5k... nothing more than that! EVEN if i bring HB, i won't be able to survive otherwise... and I HAVE WASHED too!
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - TamilTiger1 - 2009-01-27
If this should be fixed, then shouldn't anego be fixed to be warrior friendly as well? This may only be in our version now but it still affects the warriors here. And other versions could also get it sooner or later.
Yes its harder for some classes than others but thats the point of having different classes. You can't say that bowman can't get past that map because you can if you are being carefull and yes there should be risks in it. You chose the class knowing their weakness, this is also what gives some other classes advantage in this area over others. Its what being that class means, you can't do everything. Magicians who get disconnected in some maps will respawn on a monster and die instantly, but they can make use of their tanking abilities elsewhere better than other classes. Its the risk that comes with the class you choose.
As a bowman you can kill big foot by using puppet, but requires some risks and a bit slower in killing it. You can move back a bit each time then puppet on other side and jump over big foot (with mount to be safe) then continue.
As a mage you can kill it, takes hell of a long time and you have to be really high level to take the damage. At almost level 160, i still can't take touch damage unless i wear a piece of hp equip.
Warriors also have to be really high level to survive touch damage which they are at risk of mostly along with other melee (shadowers and bucc). They do very well at high levels.
Thiefs, take lot of time in killing and almost similar risk as bowman.
Big foot is just more friendly to warriors than other classes but thats also at high enough levels. Just like how anego is ranged friendly and a nightmare for warriors. I don't see why the ranged should have advantage and be able to do all bosses while warriors can't.
I think it should be left as it is now, makes bosses a little challenging.
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - FelixTM - 2009-01-28
Dusk Wrote:You can't safely hold Bigfoot down with Puppet alone; it would either require running into his stomp range to make him stop running and counting on him stomping or giving up some room every couple of seconds. This would be next to impossible on any map but Phantom Road. Bigfoot kills Puppet in two hits on average; even with a lowered damage that probably wouldn't last long enough for more than 4-5 hits. Having to risk certain death to hold down a boss every 10 seconds is quite a daunting task.
I don't really know what you two are going back and forth about, but I need to comment on this, at least. I don't know what you're talking about @ bolded. Maybe you need more practice at it? I've had so many pure-Puppet hold BF solos that I've lost count. That was the only way I soloed BF until I learned the quick pin (mount + wall) method. Sometimes I lose ground, yeah, but there's been several BF solos where I kept BF in the exact same place the entire battle with constant Puppet use (and yes, I've done that in all the different maps, even the Evilwraiths one). It's extremely easy if you just maintain focus and keep the little twerps off you.
I'd like to know why you said that... BF is so easy to control. :/ Once you take the time to hunt them often, you'll learn all the different methods of dominating him. I can do whatever I want with BF with no risk to myself. I can lead him around the map, pin him when I want, etc... In the very beginning, I hated the missing hitboxes, but I quickly learned to love them. It makes BF more interesting (which he needs, because he's just as boring Pap, HH, Anego, yeah yeah).
And yeah I realize my character is much stronger than yours (less time to deal with BF), but if you learn to control BF it's not any harder, just longer (I don't feel level is an argument, anyway, because it's not hard to level if you want - but that's not my point). Even Night Lords can easily take down BF, and they have less control options than bowmen. Once melee can take a touch hit, he becomes a joke to them, too. Bigfoot needs to stay exactly how he is because he's already too pathetic...
(And as an FYI, since I think I saw someone say something about it: Puppet pin VS Wall pin at Bigfoot for skilled BMs is nearly the exact same amount of time to kill. It differs by 1-2 mins, at most. I've done several of both methods.)
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - Dusk - 2009-01-28
Felix, I meant you can't pin Bigfoot without being able to KB him. It's just not possible. Puppet doesn't push him back, it just keeps him in one place. You'll lose ground on him no matter how good you are at Puppeting.
Edit: Btw, what did you think I meant by Puppet alone? Of course you can solo BF if you can KB him. I've seen it done plenty of times.
And yeah, I know Anego's not melee friendly. I didn't say that was fair either, I just don't think something that got imported from JMS that is unfair should be balanced by making Bigfoot unfair to ranged classes.
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - cooldog67 - 2009-01-28
if you take away the kb glitch, it takes the lower ascent training places from noobs. >.<
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - summer - 2009-01-28
explain?
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - TamilTiger1 - 2009-01-28
Dusk Wrote:And yeah, I know Anego's not melee friendly. I didn't say that was fair either, I just don't think something that got imported from JMS that is unfair should be balanced by making Bigfoot unfair to ranged classes.
Even if its imported from JMS, its still part of our version now is it not? Most of the contents are shared between the versions and it might get to JMS one day to make it fair for the warriors there too. Maybe JMS has some other exclusive areas that give advantage to warriors that we'll never get here. Or better yet, why not change the showa bosses to be warrior friendly for our version now since BF is only available here so far. They did say that we don't do everything other versions do when someone sent an e-mail about the elemental wands being different here right? Imported material or not its still part of our everyday game play, i don't see why they can't be balanced using our own content. Yes new imported contents may come here soon, but it hasn't yet and when it does they could just as well bring out another way of balancing that.
It becomes easier with more practice. I see the currect big foot as a bigger advantage to archers and other ranged characters already, they can actually kill it with difficulty but for a melee class its impossible until they can take a touch damage.
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - Stereo - 2009-01-28
cooldog67 Wrote:if you take away the kb glitch, it takes the lower ascent training places from noobs. >.<
70+ can do quests to completely bypass the Crossroads, Elder Wraiths are more a worry than Bigfoot.
As for 60-70, well... you gain so much exp... what's 5% here and there? 50%/hour training makes up for it easily.
Not to mention, everyone except Assassins can stock up on pots and go up to Lower ascent for levels at a time. And Thieves have dark sight to get past BF even if they run into one (I saw him once during 58-70)
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - Dusk - 2009-01-28
TamilTiger1 Wrote:Even if its imported from JMS, its still part of our version now is it not? Most of the contents are shared between the versions and it might get to JMS one day to make it fair for the warriors there too. Maybe JMS has some other exclusive areas that give advantage to warriors that we'll never get here. Or better yet, why not change the showa bosses to be warrior friendly for our version now since BF is only available here so far. They did say that we don't do everything other versions do when someone sent an e-mail about the elemental wands being different here right? Imported material or not its still part of our everyday game play, i don't see why they can't be balanced using our own content. Yes new imported contents may come here soon, but it hasn't yet and when it does they could just as well bring out another way of balancing that.
It becomes easier with more practice. I see the currect big foot as a bigger advantage to archers and other ranged characters already, they can actually kill it with difficulty but for a melee class its impossible until they can take a touch damage.
Yeah, uh, take that up with JMS, because they like Hermits a lot. Showa is total garbage, it's a shame it even exists, and even more of a shame that we can't at least have the original, working version where the enemies aren't randomly missing hitboxes, or confined to a small section of the map, and the Bain map had a sniping spot (and I say that now even though I wanted it a lot before it was released and discovered how crappy it actually is). I want Bigfoot to be an equal opportunity for all classes, not to favor one class more than another. Balancing one bad boss with another bad boss is not the way to go.
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - FelixTM - 2009-01-28
Dusk Wrote:Felix, I meant you can't pin Bigfoot without being able to KB him. It's just not possible. Puppet doesn't push him back, it just keeps him in one place. You'll lose ground on him no matter how good you are at Puppeting.
Edit: Btw, what did you think I meant by Puppet alone? Of course you can solo BF if you can KB him. I've seen it done plenty of times.
How weak do you have to be to not be able to KB Bigfoot? His KB is only 2k, isn't it? No one before 4th job should be fighting BF, anyway. Can't 12x BMs KB him with their crits? As long as you can KB with at least your crits (or some of your crits), you won't lose any ground using Puppet to hold him in the middle of the map. Heck, as long as you stay focused and recast Puppet right away, you won't lose ground even without KB.
I think it's just your use of "lose ground" that is confusing/bothering me. The only way you have to retreat and re-situate yourself is when a Jr Wraith hits you like right when Puppet disappears (or you dose off or something). Barring Jr Wraiths (not hard to keep them off you, anyway), how do you lose ground using Puppet?
By Puppet alone I assumed you meant using Puppet as the source of holding him, rather than using a wall. You meant using ONLY Puppet and no attacking skills...? Or what? That's pretty silly to even say. Puppet is nearly as effective as a wall, if you're good at using it. But obviously you have to attack. Lol
Two bigfoots - Poll of boredom ;D - Dusk - 2009-01-28
FelixTM Wrote:How weak do you have to be to not be able to KB Bigfoot? His KB is only 2k, isn't it? No one before 4th job should be fighting BF, anyway. Can't 12x BMs KB him with their crits? As long as you can KB with at least your crits (or some of your crits), you won't lose any ground using Puppet to hold him in the middle of the map. Heck, as long as you stay focused and recast Puppet right away, you won't lose ground even without KB.This is what happens when you don't read the rest of the thread. DrRusty proposed raising the KB to 15k. That's what prompted me to say that you can't hold Bigfoot back with Puppet alone.
I think it's just your use of "lose ground" that is confusing/bothering me. The only way you have to retreat and re-situate yourself is when a Jr Wraith hits you like right when Puppet disappears (or you dose off or something). Barring Jr Wraiths (not hard to keep them off you, anyway), how do you lose ground using Puppet?
By Puppet alone I assumed you meant using Puppet as the source of holding him, rather than using a wall. You meant using ONLY Puppet and no attacking skills...? Or what? That's pretty silly to even say. Puppet is nearly as effective as a wall, if you're good at using it. But obviously you have to attack. Lol