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+--- Thread: Class Role Balance (/showthread.php?tid=7400)
Class Role Balance - Kirov - 2009-01-17
darksyte Wrote:here's a thought: why don't they just make bosses that dont' sit in one spot the entire fight?
Those bosses are even worse... Pin them against the wall job done...
It's hard to find a suitable roll for an AM at a boss. You could fall back on the old mob control thing but it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference with just other classes taking care of the mobs. And doing something like having the boss summon cancel weapon attack a lot is just annoying.
Class Role Balance - darksyte - 2009-01-17
Kirov Wrote:Those bosses are even worse... Pin them against the wall job done...
well I've been thinking it over and i had the thought of making the boss use aggro, im not sure how it would work out but if it somehow got aggro'd by melee classes (warriors), it would allow the ranged classes to attack safely and give melee's a purpose. i was thinking it could probably get aggro'd to the classes doing the highest single numbers (that way it wont go for the archers....and weaker NLs? >_>). if it were to be elementally based Pally's could use their charges + ACB to keep it aggro'd, heroes have their brandish. shadowers would also have an important role seeing how BS does pretty okay numbers and assassinate charged enough could easily do some good single numbers. They would also have smokeshell to help the other tanks + their fake/BStep/natural avoid to help them out. im not too familiar with pirates, and all i could think for mages was using the elemental base to their advantage.
not really practical as a boss, but i can still dream...
Class Role Balance - Kabanaw - 2009-01-17
This was suggested by someone before, but make AM's mana reflection work on the party. That would mean if there was an AM in every party, whenever a boss did 3k dmg, if there were 20 people bossing it would mean 120k damage back to the boss. And when there was a 1/1 attack, it would double everyone's HP add it together and throw it back at the guy.
And as I said before, if AMs damage was more akin to WA formulas, I think that we'd have better damage.
Class Role Balance - Dusk - 2009-01-17
Stereo Wrote:DPS should act in favour of melee classes, since it's harder for them to fight bosses (can't pin/snipe, danger of touch damage, KB always knocks them out of strike range, etc). Why even play a melee class when you can get better damage with better range at less risk? All Warriors are good for right now is supporting skills, and 2/3 of the subclasses don't even have one.
Well, you don't risk getting 1 hitted, but I suppose you're right about taking a lot more hits. I still think ranged classes should be the strongest attackers (though I may be biased considering both my mains are ranged), but they do need to help melees somehow.
Class Role Balance - Stereo - 2009-01-17
Dusk Wrote:Well, you don't risk getting 1 hitted, but I suppose you're right about taking a lot more hits. I still think ranged classes should be the strongest attackers
1 hitted at Zakum is not so unlikely (he does near 10k touch) if you're Berserking. Especially if you have to go to the right side to do it (where magic attacks bump you onto the body)
I think that's the main skill I actually have a problem with though - Berserk is too weak for its limitations.
And in general, higher DPS melee does not make them stronger than ranged attackers for the reasons I mentioned. Unless the boss is Zakum. (large hitbox + stationary)
Class Role Balance - Sinnuendo - 2009-01-17
darksyte Wrote:anego and bigfoot are cannon fodder, I'm not sure on the specifics of PB but isn't it immobile as well?
but other-wise yes, more bosses along the lines of the balrog family, somewhat along the lines of pap but pap can also turn into a pindown "spam the same move to KB it" type of fight easy. A boss that won't sit still and take what the ranged classes throw at it without an actual fight.
It becomes mobile in phase 6 (which hasn't been programmed yet, gg Nexon Korea), and it's also unpinnable unless you use Rush to pin it (I believe).
Class Role Balance - Kabanaw - 2009-01-18
Sinnuendo Wrote:It becomes mobile in phase 6 (which hasn't been programmed yet, gg Nexon Korea), and it's also unpinnable unless you use Rush to pin it (I believe).
Well, it has a KB of 130k, so unless there's a class that can do that in one hit while their damage is being cut in half that's a negative.
Class Role Balance - MasPan - 2009-01-18
Stereo Wrote:1 hitted at Zakum is not so unlikely (he does near 10k touch) if you're Berserking. Especially if you have to go to the right side to do it (where magic attacks bump you onto the body)
I think that's the main skill I actually have a problem with though - Berserk is too weak for its limitations.
And in general, higher DPS melee does not make them stronger than ranged attackers for the reasons I mentioned. Unless the boss is Zakum. (large hitbox + stationary)
Indeed - at max it provides the same benefit as Combo (+100% damage), without potential finishers, and with a huge HP loss requirement. WTP...
Class Role Balance - Takebacker - 2009-01-18
MasPan Wrote:Indeed - at max it provides the same benefit as Combo (+100% damage), without potential finishers, and with a huge HP loss requirement. WTP...
Isn't advance combo 190% damage at max, requires 30 more SP, can get dispelled/isn't passive, etc etc though?
I agree it's too weak for what it gives up though. On the other hand, i think with 50% HP they only have to be at 95% of their non-HB'd HP for double damage. o_o
Class Role Balance - Russt - 2009-01-18
80%, Steve.
100% -> HB -> 160% -> Berserk threshold -> 80%
Class Role Balance - mugsly - 2009-01-19
Kabanaw Wrote:Well, it has a KB of 130k, so unless there's a class that can do that in one hit while their damage is being cut in half that's a negative.
rush always kbs a kbable monster even if it doesn't go over the kb. for instance, you can rush pap with a 3k rush etc..
Class Role Balance - MasPan - 2009-01-19
Takebacker Wrote:Isn't advance combo 190% damage at max, requires 30 more SP, can get dispelled/isn't passive, etc etc though?
I agree it's too weak for what it gives up though. On the other hand, i think with 50% HP they only have to be at 95% of their non-HB'd HP for double damage. o_o
Considering we have no PG, that HP isn't as much as you would think. HB is the DrK's way to account for that, and berzerk pretty much does away with that balance - leaving DrKs with lower HP (lower base HP to begin with due to job-advance bonuses for Heros). Numbers may have been wrong on combo, but it's still a significant boost (normal combo, not advance) that comes in 3rd job and does not depend on HP loss. While it can be dispelled, so can HB, which can in effect dispel Zerk by altering HP ratios. Zerk 30 is also HT only, meaning it takes a lot of work to get more than 20 points out of it (40% HP with kMSt changes, 170% damage).
Class Role Balance - 3xiledSlayer - 2009-01-19
Imo, Beserk doesn't need to be stronger. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't DrKs using max Beholder get a 20% mastery boost? That would give them 80% mastery. That's more than most classes get. Only classes with more are BM's and MM's.
Class Role Balance - haha01haha01 - 2009-01-19
Stereo Wrote:DPS should act in favour of melee classes, since it's harder for them to fight bosses (can't pin/snipe, danger of touch damage, KB always knocks them out of strike range, etc). Why even play a melee class when you can get better damage with better range at less risk? All Warriors are good for right now is supporting skills, and 2/3 of the subclasses don't even have one.
true, i hate getting into parties just as an hb mule.
Class Role Balance - Kabanaw - 2009-01-19
mugsly Wrote:rush always kbs a kbable monster even if it doesn't go over the kb. for instance, you can rush pap with a 3k rush etc..
I know, I was just saying that only rush can KB it since everything that would potentially be able to do 130k dmg is cut in half.
Class Role Balance - TamilTiger1 - 2009-01-19
Stereo Wrote:DPS should act in favour of melee classes, since it's harder for them to fight bosses (can't pin/snipe, danger of touch damage, KB always knocks them out of strike range, etc). Why even play a melee class when you can get better damage with better range at less risk? All Warriors are good for right now is supporting skills, and 2/3 of the subclasses don't even have one.
This is where stance come into play though. IMO warriors are pretty well built (offcourse there is the need to balance the 3 warriors), they can stand near the boss and spam away their attacks and control mobs while doing damage. This pretty much took away the role of mages controlling mobs. The ranged attackers can't do much about the mobs, so they need the high 1 vs 1 attack or else they won't be in the parties, it'll just be all warrior/melee bossing. Ranged classes do have a huge risk, they can't survive at major bosses without HB. They need the support of the warriors or else they're nothing.
But putting mages in for mob control at bosses is a big joke. They even add elemental strengths to the mobs... my bowmaster does better with mob control then my arch mage at zakum. So like the others said, Arch mages definetly need some party buffs to get them in some bosses atleast. Really anything other than meditation would work... i really don't know why they even made meditation a party buff, weapon attackers have no use from it. Adding 20% elemental damage to everyone would have been awesome, it'll be like SE for bossing.
Warriors are needed for bosses, how much harder would horntail runs be without warriors? it'll be almost impossible. DrKs for HB and Stance and damage, Heros for damage and stance. Hopefully they bring up paladins more and more and they'll also be wanted. Threaten could be a huge improvement for them already. But compare Bishops support skills to AMs support skill then compare their damage at bosses. The damage difference is close to nothing. So the question should be whats the point of making arch mages instead of bishops?
Class Role Balance - Takebacker - 2009-01-19
Damage difference close to nothing? Far as i know, bishops are healing at HT, and unless it's been changed, you can't heal HT. O______O
Class Role Balance - Holypie - 2009-01-19
like an elemental charge party buff?
Class Role Balance - Takebacker - 2009-01-19
Holypie Wrote:like an elemental charge party buff?
More like an amplification party buff.
Class Role Balance - TamilTiger1 - 2009-01-19
Takebacker Wrote:Damage difference close to nothing? Far as i know, bishops are healing at HT, and unless it's been changed, you can't heal HT. O______O
Not just horntail =_=
Any bosses, 1vs1 damage between the 3 magicians are very close to each other including bishops. And how many arch mages are taken to horntail because they are usefull lol? they take them because they are friends.
The elemental boost can be something that boost up their damage even if its a weapon attacker. Its like adding elemental bonus to their normal damage. You know how SE has a certain percent chance of working for other classes, maybe this one can have the same except much higher chance of activating or else no one would want it lol. Example: 50% chance of adding 20% extra damage with elemental bonus. 20% is probably too low, maybe 40% like SE.
Oh wait I think SE adds 140% even though it says 40% in the discription. This way it won't over power classes that already have critical, it'll be close to equal increase for all classes.