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+--- Thread: KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes (/showthread.php?tid=71912)
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - thedental - 2014-07-17
So Marksman won't get that +80 dex from Illusion Step?! .-.
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - UltimaSteele - 2014-07-17
ShinkuDragon Wrote:i don't hate heroes, however the hero community on a certain other forum is the most entitled community i've seen. and it annoys me to no end that nexon seems to cater to that.
heroes sat at the top of the charts for over 3 years while pallies and DrK's dealt so little damage in comparison that their only use was their support (so basically, hyperbody and GG pallies) until recently. and now nexon goes and reinstates that again, even though the three are the most balanced they've been in years. as balanced as this game allows that is.
Previous failings are no justification for current imbalance. I could just as easily say that DKs sat at the top for a long time until 4th job was released, but it'd be fallacious reasoning for any sort of current discussion. DKs are pretty insane as is with crossover chains and perma-gungnir spam obtainable fairly easy; a hero just can't compare by any stretch of the imagination. Heroes having a combo cost removed on a useless skill and a cooldown reduction on an arguably even more useless skill is by no means "nexon catering to heroes." To say the three explorer warriors are the most balanced than they have ever been is laughable. I'd say that belonged to the time before any skill changes, back before 4th job was released. Sure, DKs were on top, but the difference was much more marginal then.
Regardless, this argument is largely moot considering these changes are likely just preparation for 5th job.
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - Even - 2014-07-17
Eyon Wrote:Plus the hyperskill Reinforce gets it to 320%.
Reinforce doesnt work like that. Reinforce is a total dmg boost of 20% when you use this skill, just like you gain demon avengers link skill x2 when using hurricane, not flat 20%+ on the skill you're using.
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - EMSKakaoTalk - 2014-07-17
thedental Wrote:So Marksman won't get that +80 dex from Illusion Step?! .-.
Looks like Nexon forgot about marksman. Nothing done to the class =(
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - ShinkuDragon - 2014-07-17
UltimaSteele Wrote:Previous failings are no justification for current imbalance. I could just as easily say that DKs sat at the top for a long time until 4th job was released, but it'd be fallacious reasoning for any sort of current discussion. DKs are pretty insane as is with crossover chains and perma-gungnir spam obtainable fairly easy; a hero just can't compare by any stretch of the imagination. Heroes having a combo cost removed on a useless skill and a cooldown reduction on an arguably even more useless skill is by no means "nexon catering to heroes." To say the three explorer warriors are the most balanced than they have ever been is laughable. I'd say that belonged to the time before any skill changes, back before 4th job was released. Sure, DKs were on top, but the difference was much more marginal then.
Regardless, this argument is largely moot considering these changes are likely just preparation for 5th job.
heroes right now sit as a better unfunded class, with dark knights becoming better on harder bosses, and paladins becoming the best at endgame, at least until capping.
and i do consider it catering to the heroes when the two skills that make the classes good are butchered to the next millenia, DrK's got a massive cut to gungnir to the point it isn't even worth looking at the class. right now a DrK spends 2/3'rds of a minute in gungnir without any buff duration. post patch with 50% buff duration (which is not easy to acquire as you say, see the many threads about people running out of points) spend 45 out of 70 seconds, that is, 1/2 of the time in perma gungnir, even if you massively get lucky and pay up your ass for the 80% buff duration you can get (50% inner, level 200 mech and level 100 empathy or whatever) that's 54 seconds out of 70, or 46 seconds out of a minute.
that's right, a DrK with every buff duration available only has a 6 second advantage over a clean current DrK. which is on it's pretty freaking hard to get.
and then there's the nerf to crossover on top. just to make sure DrK's do suck.
pallies got a skill named -void elemental- that doesn't void elements. to the point that it had it's name changed, at least they have a revive and some tricks to be useful to a party, but a DrK has literally nothing except HB, and that's only even useful if you're empressing, or tanking empress flames, that's it, nowhere else.
i'd disagree with the pre-4th comment but those were different times, DrK's having full map attack and everything and only them was pretty big. i myself did consider them pretty OP back then. i think the most balanced they had been was the short period after chaos.
what annoys me the most however is that after this i'm going to see threads of heroes claiming that they're still "oh so underpowered" because DrK's still have gungnir" or god knows what other thing they'll come up with. that's the part that annoys me the most
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - Ivangold - 2014-07-17
EMSKakaoTalk Wrote:Looks like Nexon forgot about marksman. Nothing done to the class =(
Well well, seens that we are really balanced as i thought
, everything that i wanted i got in RED patch less a long rang snipe, but i don't really care, if i get a 1x1 skill at 5job with a good rang(same as piercing arrow) it would be awsome 
.EDIT: WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP COMPARING HERO VS DRK WITH THE GUNGNIR SPAMABLE?
, that wasn't original of the class, if you wanna compare both, they need no eqp or anything else, compare the class first 
.
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - Lisak - 2014-07-17
Eyon Wrote:Hence me saying that I feel there can be done more. It is a buff at this point. A small one, but a buff nonetheless.
I myself would be content if they let hurricane activate Magic arrow/Final attack on both lines of split hurricane. This would increase DMG alot without needing to buff hurricane itself or passives.
I don't think they will ever do that. Purely because if you had to bet money, Magic Arrows and/or AFA proc would probaly be increasing in 5th job.
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - hadriel - 2014-07-17
MMs no longer have Ultimate Strafe, only Pierce as a primary mobbing skill, and Snipe as a primary 1v1/bossing skill. MMs just have a crazy no. of passives, so much that the +1PassiveSkill IA and CO are probably amongst the most desirable stuff around.
Hadriel
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - EMSKakaoTalk - 2014-07-17
but oh hey, it's not so difficult to cap. on marksman, and the damage limit per seconds you can make as a marksman is considerably low compared to that of other classes.
especially considering this patch is done for KMS, the unchanged 400m cap doesn't sound very realistic =(
I agree that marksman is pretty well-balanced, but they could at last made snipe's cap. 600m
(I think 999,999,999 is still low but wateverr)
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - Kirov - 2014-07-17
For Boomerang Step could they not do a Song of Heaven style deal and have it do more damage when attacking less mobs.
Ivangold Wrote:EDIT: WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP COMPARING HERO VS DRK WITH THE GUNGNIR SPAMABLE?
That's the exact opposite of what you should do, those are unrealistic conditions. If they had done more adequate testing to begin with then they would have realised that 100% Gungnir was something that wasn't impossibly hard to achieve and adjusted things accordingly before releasing the revamps.
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - HighOnMushrooms - 2014-07-17
EMSKakaoTalk Wrote:Looks like Nexon forgot about marksman. Nothing done to the class =(
Doesn't Marksman already beat BM in bossing anyways? And you guys have infinitely times better mobbing, and that 60% damage reduction shield that I would kill for :<
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - EMSKakaoTalk - 2014-07-17
HighOnMushrooms Wrote:Doesn't Marksman already beat BM in bossing anyways? And you guys have infinitely times better mobbing, and that 60% damage reduction shield that I would kill for :<
It looks like today's patch made BM better than MM tho.. xD
and besides, I just wanted to point out how nothing was done to marksman Q.Q
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - ElTwice - 2014-07-17
It's good to know that they changed back the change of ignis roar back to giving to 40 it was derrpy but now it gives that and more? that's nice, too bad about pallies.
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - HighOnMushrooms - 2014-07-17
EMSKakaoTalk Wrote:It looks like today's patch made BM better than MM tho.. xD
and besides, I just wanted to point out how nothing was done to marksman Q.Q
Haha yeah I guess I am being a bit biased. Hopefully they get something in the next patch
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - Lisak - 2014-07-17
EMSKakaoTalk Wrote:It looks like today's patch made BM better than MM tho.. xD
and besides, I just wanted to point out how nothing was done to marksman Q.Q
This patch for the most part just made BMs simpler by making them use Hurricane for everything and less reliant on installation. Outside of that, thier DPM barely and I mean BARELY increased. Like less than 1% of an increase.
So I don't see how BM is now better than MM at least numerically on paper. I don't know how much using a mobile skill that also has the dpm of GMS Blaster will impact realistic dps against bosses though.
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - Chilly - 2014-07-17
Besides, these feel like "make bad classes better" changes (debatable), not wholesale "all classes rebalancing" changes. At least that was what I perceived to be their intention, so I would not go expecting some classes, that seem capable and sufficient, to get touched.
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - EMSKakaoTalk - 2014-07-17
Lisak Wrote:This patch for the most part just made BMs simpler by making them use Hurricane for everything and less reliant on installation. Outside of that, thier DPM barely and I mean BARELY increased. Like less than 1% of an increase.
So I don't see how BM is now better than MM at least numerically on paper. I don't know how much using a mobile skill that also has the dpm of GMS Blaster will impact realistic dps against bosses though.
From what I have observed,
Final attack error of both hurricane & arrow blaster got fixed,
BM's passive skills have become stronger,
and the %dmg of hurricane as well as the split dmg hyper skill %dmg is increased.
I understand that under certain bossing circumstances BMs may not have a huge advantage but in bosses like Hard Magnus, BMs are way better than MMs due to the skills having less delay and the healing arrows.
I guess I could say BMs are better under 'some' circumstances compared to MMs.
I wanna say that the official dpm chart of insoya.com says that BMs are way better than MMs on paper now but before I receive some serious "scientific critique" saying I do not understand the mechanism of DPM chart I will stop here and say hmm I don't know which job is better on paper..
Regardless, both classes are awesome to play/do bossing for me..
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - Ivangold - 2014-07-17
@EMSKakao, well maybe you're right, also if the bowmaster are equal to before, they are faster to attack the boss, thinking that set up the arrow blaster everytime would wast some time
, and the shield reduce 20%dmg to get 60%aborve(really nice ) but the only thing about the shield is that it doesn't work in RA boss or magnus and thoose bosses that hit % hp , maybe they could it like ''toggle'' so it only work when you want, or make half of the %absorved damage for these %hp hits(like, if they hit 100%of your hp and you have 30%absorve, you would lose 85%of your hp instead 
).
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - iVege - 2014-07-17
HighOnMushrooms Wrote:Doesn't Marksman already beat BM in bossing anyways? And you guys have infinitely times better mobbing, and that 60% damage reduction shield that I would kill for :<
Not really. Right now, according to JT's tables, Bowmasters sit around the middle of a Marksman's minimum and maximum (though they would sit a bit higher if the Marksman doesn't get some external sources of attacking speed), though it's pretty much impossible to attain that maximum, and some bosses won't even allow you enough space to reach it. And since JT's chart doesn't account for it, this is without the damage boost given by Armour Break that's quite broken at high-PDR bosses, which afaik put Bowmasters above Marksmen.
As for mobbing, Bowmasters could maybe surpass Marksmen at lower numbers if they get Arrow Blaster to hit at least one mob. Though, I do believe that's fair considering Marksmen do so much better on high number of mobs, even if it's harder to encounter high numbers compared to low.
After this patch, though, Bowmasters received a buff to both bossing and mobbing (40% total damage). With these buffs I'd say their superiority at lower mobs is cemented. And with an extra 20 attack (and 40 DEX), for a total of 60 attack advantage over Marksmen, I'd say their lower multiplier couldn't mean less. After this patch, I would say Bowmasters could continue to be substantially better bossers, with mobbing that changes depending on the mob size.
And as for Aggressive Resistance, just like how you envy Marksmen's survivability while training, they probably envy your ability to drain during bosses that limit your recovery.
KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes - Lisak - 2014-07-17
EMSKakaoTalk Wrote:From what I have observed,
Final attack error of both hurricane & arrow blaster got fixed,
BM's passive skills have become stronger,
and the %dmg of hurricane as well as the split dmg hyper skill %dmg is increased.
I understand that under certain bossing circumstances BMs may not have a huge advantage but in bosses like Hard Magnus, BMs are way better than MMs due to the skills having less delay and the healing arrows.
I guess I could say BMs are better under 'some' circumstances compared to MMs.
I wanna say that the official dpm chart of insoya.com says that BMs are way better than MMs on paper now but before I receive some serious "scientific critique" saying I do not understand the mechanism of DPM chart I will stop here and say hmm I don't know which job is better on paper..
Regardless, both classes are awesome to play/do bossing for me..
Those FA errors were in regards to the Prior KMST. If the installation for some reason activates AFA now, thats a different story. But I am HIGHLY doubtful, until I see some videos.
DPM Charts on BM vs MM....I only trust http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2782310 because of the fact that you can see what they are doing and alot of ppl critiqued it. I don't see that gap when comparing GMS MM with KMST BM unless the MM is capping.
I am not going to get into wheter BM or MM are the better bossers "realistically" because IDK and IDC. So ill just agree with your points there, but that insonya dpm chart sounds cookey to me.