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Creation VS Evolution - Printable Version

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Creation VS Evolution - icephoenix21 - 2014-02-05

SaptaZapta Wrote:To be fair, it's not like the evolutionists are willing to change their mindset, either.
Both sides have a failsafe against any possible argument or evidence, be it "it was created that way" or "there must be a scientific explanation, even if we haven't found it yet".

The purpose of these debates, in their many incarnations, is not to sway the other side. That's impossible. It's to sway the undecided members of the audience, or strengthen them in the beliefs they already hold but don't know how to defend.

Yet when I say something similar, I get pom'd for it Rolleyes
Your way with words must be better.


Creation VS Evolution - MuscleWizard - 2014-02-05

Evolution has been proven, creationism has not.

Viruses and bacteria evolve at a rate fast enough for the changes to be visible in recent history.


How do you think antibiotic resistant strains happen?


Creation VS Evolution - Malthe - 2014-02-05

icephoenix21 Wrote:Yet when I say something similar, I get pom'd for it Rolleyes
Your way with words must be better.

The difference is that the way your post was written it came off as though this debate in itself was pointless and they should just agree to disagree and stop the debate.
Sapta pointed out that the purpose isn't for the two debaters to persuade eachother but to persuade the undecided or people who aren't completely certain what they think is the truth.
And to me, such debates most definitely have value and are worth having.

SaptaZapta Wrote:To be fair, it's not like the evolutionists are willing to change their mindset, either.

I'm going to have to disagree here.
If you find evidence against evolution, evolutionists will not keep blindly defending it. Like with science in general paradigms can change.
And even though it might be hard to change the opinion of scientists all over the world because you found proof that the current paradigm is wrong, it is most definitely possible, you can see this video to see an example of just that:

[video=youtube;EZRTzOMHQ4s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZRTzOMHQ4s[/video]

That is where science and religion really stand apart, that science is willing to give up on things that have been proven to no longer hold true.
It just so happens that even 150 years later the theory of evolution is still by far the best scientific explanation available. However to bring up a fun example, if you were to find rabbits in the pre-cambrian era you would shoot an absolutely enormous hole in the theory of evolution since certainly no mammals should exist in the pre-cambrian era.


Creation VS Evolution - Niernen - 2014-02-05

Of course, if evolution was some grand prank by a superior entity, we would probably never know.


Creation VS Evolution - SaptaZapta - 2014-02-05

Malthe Wrote:That is where science and religion really stand apart, that science is willing to give up on things that have been proven to no longer hold true.
It just so happens that even 150 years later the theory of evolution is still by far the best scientific explanation available. However to bring up a fun example, if you were to find rabbits in the pre-cambrian era you would shoot an absolutely enormous hole in the theory of evolution since certainly no mammals should exist in the pre-cambrian era.

If you were to find rabbits in the pre-cambrian era, the first thing that would be called into question would not be evolution, but the methods you used to establish that the findings are, in fact, pre-cambrian.

And even if it were proven without a shadow of a doubt, what would happen would be an adjustment to the theory. The principles of evolution would not have been refuted: mutation and selection are observable phenomena, not a theory, so they can't really be refuted. What would change is the timeline: someone would come up with a new tree, a new sequence, a theory that explains how life did start with unicellular organisms and evolve to what we have today, but in a way that allows for rabbits in the pre-cambrian, perhaps with a few more "missing links" than the current timeline has.
Yes, science has abandoned discredited theories before, and will do so again. But the paradigm of evolution is flexible enough that I don't see how it could ever be completely discredited.

Don't get me wrong, I am an atheist and a firm believer in the scientific method. But I am also aware that the basic premise, which I phrased earlier as "there must be a scientific explanation, even if we haven't found it yet," has to be taken on faith.


Creation VS Evolution - icephoenix21 - 2014-02-05

Malthe Wrote:The difference is that the way your post was written it came off as though this debate in itself was pointless and they should just agree to disagree and stop the debate.
Sapta pointed out that the purpose isn't for the two debaters to persuade eachother but to persuade the undecided or people who aren't completely certain what they think is the truth.
And to me, such debates most definitely have value and are worth having.

If I thought the debate was pointless, why would I say that it's interesting?


Creation VS Evolution - KhainiWest - 2014-02-05

icephoenix21 Wrote:It's interesting to hear both sides.

However on topics such as this, I think it's best to just agree to disagree.

I highly doubt that Billy Nye will be persuaded to believe creationism or vice-versa.

I'm pretty sure that's what got you pom'd because debates like these should be had more often so that we don't get circumstances where buddhists don't get told "Move out of the bible belt to other asians or convert your religion" from an unapologetic super intendent.

You don't see scientists knocking over churches but you see religious teachers ruining education Rolleyes


Creation VS Evolution - icephoenix21 - 2014-02-05

KhainiWest Wrote:I'm pretty sure that's what got you pom'd because debates like these should be had more often so that we don't get circumstances where buddhists don't get told "Move out of the bible belt to other asians or convert your religion" from an unapologetic super intendent.

You don't see scientists knocking over churches but you see religious teachers ruining education Rolleyes

Perhaps, but at the end of the day, in general ' I think it's best to just agree to disagree'. No need to get your (well, not you) panties in a bunch and dig deeper into my post than meant to be.

From a debating standpoint, I think it's good to discuss such things because it encourages critical thinking.
I can't really comment on your last comment as I went to a private school through 7-12, although I did hate a majority of those teachers Rolleyes


Creation VS Evolution - Sardines - 2014-02-05

MuscleWizard Wrote:The fact that dna exists and can mutate from generation to generation proves evolution exists. If evolution wasn't a thing selective breeding of various animal species for desired traits wouldn't be s thing.

Ken Ham-ism acknowledges micro evolution and heredity. Just not macro-morphological changes such as adaptations that produced man as a species.


Creation VS Evolution - MuscleWizard - 2014-02-05

the only reason people don't want to outright declare evolution as scientific fact is because it completely rapes one of the basic tenets of most religions

god created man in his own image


Creation VS Evolution - Sardines - 2014-02-05

MuscleWizard Wrote:the only reason people don't want to outright declare evolution as scientific fact is because it completely rapes one of the basic tenets of most religions

god created man in his own image

The interpretation behind that statement is not really a huge contention with Christians because God himself is seen as a metaphysical sort of deity allowing the verse to be an open interpretation rather than one they are forced to accept literally. When it comes to Christianity, I always found Genesis 2:7 to be a harder struggle than Genesis 1:27 for Christians trying to compromise between a scientific and a religious approach to the beginning of mankind.

Some Bible Wrote:Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.



Creation VS Evolution - Flonne - 2014-02-05

I miss Hitchens so much. People like Nye are cool and all, but they are focused too much on educating the other side and not enough on subtly but completely belittling them to the extent that, if they have even half a brain, they will want to commit suicide after the debate. Neither side is going to budge anyway, why not make the best of it and run a mental marathon around them while they struggle to form a coherent sentence? I've seen almost all of Hitchens' debates and in every one, you can just see the other person slowly deflate until, by the end, they just look like a harried shell of a person, and I enjoy that immensely.


Creation VS Evolution - xparasite9 - 2014-02-05

MuscleWizard Wrote:the only reason people don't want to outright declare evolution as scientific fact is because it completely rapes one of the basic tenets of most religions

god created man in his own image

How so?
Much like Scientific Law merely states a refined, distilled collection of observations and doesn't go into the how or the why (to do so would be a Theory), this too can't be disproven.
Evolution could still be a means to an end in "creating man in his own image".


Creation VS Evolution - Sardines - 2014-02-05

xparasite9 Wrote:How so? Much like Scientific Law merely states a refined, distilled collection of observations and doesn't go into the how or the why (to do so would be a Theory), this too can't be disproven. Evolution could still be a means to an end in "creating man in his own image".

A literal interpretation of Genesis which is part of the greater belief of Ken-Hamism is incompatible with our current scientific theories on how the Earth was formed. Note that incompatible doesn't designate that all aspects of science conflict with the Ken-Ham spin of making science fit into religion, but that the current theories formed of the creation of the earth along with evolution both conflict with his belief that dogs make dogs, horses make horses, and humans make humans. Again highlighting that he doesn't sign off on macro-evolutionary changes, but doesn't deny concepts like mutations and hereditary when it comes to life as we know it.


Creation VS Evolution - xparasite9 - 2014-02-05

Sardines Wrote:A literal interpretation of Genesis which is part of the greater belief of Ken-Hamism is incompatible with our current scientific theories on how the Earth was formed.

Then what we need to do right now is rename the thread to "Young Earth Creationism VS Evolution".


Creation VS Evolution - Sardines - 2014-02-05

xparasite9 Wrote:Then what we need to do right now is rename the thread to "Young Earth Creationism VS Evolution".

Ken Ham v. Bill Nye.


Creation VS Evolution - Niernen - 2014-02-05

MuscleWizard Wrote:god created man in his own image

God is pretty messed up in that case.


Creation VS Evolution - xparasite9 - 2014-02-05

Ken Ham Wrote:Creationists and evolutionists [...] all have the same evidence—the same facts. Think about it: we all have the same earth, the same fossil layers, the same animals and plants, the same stars—the facts are all the same. The difference is in the way we all interpret the facts. And why do we interpret facts differently? Because we start with different presuppositions; these are things that are assumed to be true without being able to prove them. These then become the basis for other conclusions. All reasoning is based on presuppositions (also called axioms). This becomes especially relevant when dealing with past events

#wow #whoa


Creation VS Evolution - Sardines - 2014-02-05

Niernen Wrote:God is pretty messed up in that case.

Christians use the Fall of Man i.e. disobedience in the Garden of Eden as a root theory explaining that our disobedience resulted in failures on many other levels including moral, mental, physical, and genetic failures resulting in the problems and diseases we face today.

xparasite9 Wrote:#wow #whoa

Ken Ham Wrote:However, if we weren’t there in the past to observe events, how can we know what happened so we can explain the present? It would be great to have a time machine so we could know for sure about past events.

Christians of course claim they do, in a sense, have a “time machine.” They have a book called the Bible which claims to be the Word of God who has always been there, and has revealed to us the major events of the past about which we need to know.

On the basis of these events (Creation, Fall, Flood, Babel, etc.), we have a set of presuppositions to build a way of thinking which enables us to interpret the evidence of the present.

Evolutionists have certain beliefs about the past/present that they presuppose, e.g. no God (or at least none who performed acts of special creation), so they build a different way of thinking to interpret the evidence of the present.

 Spoiler



Creation VS Evolution - Sardines - 2014-02-05

Double post, sorry. Please delete it possible.