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+--- Thread: 4th job Single Target DPS (/showthread.php?tid=6564)
4th job Single Target DPS - JoeTang - 2008-12-21
Devil Wrote:Hmmm nice thread m8!
However I'd like to see a few things:
- Add a DK without Bereserk for bosses, since it's near impossible to use at bosses...
- And please add Onyx Apples to your calculations, you'll see NL's and both Pirates skyrocket like there's no tomorrow. Because of their low base attack, Onyx Apples almost double their damage, while other classes only add like 50% to their damage.
First of all, if you're a DrK at Zakum or HT and you can't Berserk, you're just a fucking HB mule.
Secondly, this is a DPS calculation at level 200. If you can't Berserk at 200, restart your character, do your job advances at the correct levels, and then max Improving Max HP Increase first.
4th job Single Target DPS - FelixTM - 2008-12-21
Devil Wrote:- Add a DK without Bereserk for bosses, since it's near impossible to use at bosses...
No idea why you'd think this. I've seen several DrKs use Berserk at bosses (including HT), with little trouble once they practice it. The higher leveled and/or more HP washed they are, the easier it gets. Really, it's quite stupid to think they can't Serk at bosses. You must never boss or talk to anyone or something.
4th job Single Target DPS - Dusk - 2008-12-21
KaidaTan Wrote:I have a question. Where is defense calculated? People don't train on snails.
Being a fan of calculations such as this (honestly, I wish I had thought of doing this thread first, Dusk), I know how nice it is to see the really high numbers that raw damage (that is, damage without defense) puts out. However, it can make a very large impact on DPS, especially in cross-class comparisons. I might suggest 800 (skelesaurs) and 1500 (around what HT has) as defense benchmarks. Though I have been known to use 2000 (Anego) in several of my calculations.
Lastly, in case you forgot, defense is applied as such:
maxRange-monsterDef*0.5=newMaxRange
minRange-monsterDef*0.6=newMinRange
And then the % modifier is used.
EDIT: Also... isn't Barrage 6 hits? Am I missing something? You have it listed at 10.
EDIT2: To reiterate a question above, because I didn't see an answer, what attack pots are you using for all those characters? Warrior Elixers and Apples might both be necessary for a fair comparison.
Yeah, I might consider adding a def mod in there. It's tough to decide on a fair value to use. There's no way I'm using what Skelesaurs have - I'm trying to make it clear that the numbers here in no way represent how much damage each class would do while training. There's too many variables to account for. Buccaneers do a pomegranate ton of damage when they have access to stun mastery and SE, and NLs have their Venom. Also, Skelesaurs die in 1-2 hits for most classes at level 200, so there's no point. Who trains at level 200, anyhow? o_o I'll probably just add a defense modifier box, and set it at 0 by default.
Barrage, as has already been mentioned, is effectively calculated as if it were 10 hits of damage. The last two hits are directly double and quadruple the % of the first four hits, including SE and everything. It's like how TT is effectively 3 hits, even though you see 6 numbers.
To all the people that mentioned attack pots, if you look you'll notice a space for attack pots in the base damage sheet. Right now it's listed as zero. The reason I made the whole Excel spreadsheet (which I will upload tomorrow once I add a few things) was so people could take it apart and make their own dps calculations, by playing with the checkboxes and the variables. I don't want to have to post EVERY single find, I'd rather just present the tools and allow people to make their own conclusions.
Devil Wrote:- Add a DK without Bereserk for bosses, since it's near impossible to use at bosses...How much damage do you think a DrK without Berserk would do? Exactly half what is listed. If the DrK isn't using Berserk for whatever reason, then I don't see much reason to be concerned with how much damage it is doing.
4th job Single Target DPS - Russt - 2008-12-21
TT is effectively 4.5 hits, but yeah.
4th job Single Target DPS - Dusk - 2008-12-21
Russt Wrote:TT is effectively 4.5 hits, but yeah.
My bad, I meant 1.5*(3 hits).
Also, is subtracting 0.55*Def from every average value the same thing as subtracting 0.5*def from max and 0.6*def from min? That's what I'm doing for all the special formulas.
4th job Single Target DPS - KaidaTan - 2008-12-21
Oh also, don't forget about summons. Phoenix, Frostprey, and the Octopi can probably do quite a bit of damage over time.
Dusk Wrote:Also, is subtracting 0.55*Def from every average value the same thing as subtracting 0.5*def from max and 0.6*def from min? That's what I'm doing for all the special formulas.
Yeah it is. I do that for all my average damage calcs and I have yet to have any problems when applied to reality.
4th job Single Target DPS - Kaasoljoyyx - 2008-12-21
Pretty sure the time it takes to summon them will lower their dps, especially long summon times for octopus [talking about canon].
Not 100% sure
4th job Single Target DPS - Nikkey - 2008-12-21
Kaasoljoyyx Wrote:Pretty sure the time it takes to summon them will lower their dps, especially long summon times for octopus [talking about canon].
Not 100% sure
This is just over short intervals, really. Take this example: A hero and a hermit have the same dps. Who will deal the most damage to horntail?
4th job Single Target DPS - Russt - 2008-12-21
The Hero, because he doesn't have to recast SP?
4th job Single Target DPS - Nikkey - 2008-12-21
Russt Wrote:The Hero, because he doesn't have to recast SP?
Well, he needs to recast booster, AC and stance.
Yet, I would say the hero would deal the most damage. He can spam brandish and deal with attacks which the night lord have to avoid/pot afterwards. The only times he have to pot, is when he is 1/1'd and when he is mp-drained. Aaand, he's able to survive without a party. Thus in theory, they are way "stronger".All in all, the damage per second-threads are interesting, but saying class A owns class B at HT based by these threads is wrong.
4th job Single Target DPS - Dusk - 2008-12-21
Devil's Sunrise Wrote:All in all, the damage per second-threads are interesting, but saying class A owns class B at HT based by these threads is wrong.
I realize that, and I disapprove of any conclusions like "ogm Corsairs and NLs > all kthxbye". But what the data does show is that when you compare NLs and Heroes that are similarly equipped in a Zak party with SE, the NL will almost always contribute more damage than the Hero. Doesn't mean the NL is necessarily more useful to the squad than the Hero, just that the NL has better dps. The Hero sacrifices some damage for much better survivability. But for the Hero to match the NL, it requires significantly better equips, and possibly Speed Infusion. I really don't see how anyone could argue against this logic. This is what this thread is about.
4th job Single Target DPS - XtremeBeast - 2008-12-21
Dusk Wrote:I realize that, and I disapprove of any conclusions like "ogm Corsairs and NLs > all kthxbye". But what the data does show is that when you compare NLs and Heroes that are similarly equipped in a Zak party with SE, the NL will almost always contribute more damage than the Hero. Doesn't mean the NL is necessarily more useful to the squad than the Hero, just that the NL has better dps. The Hero sacrifices some damage for much better survivability. But for the Hero to match the NL, it requires significantly better equips, and possibly Speed Infusion. I really don't see how anyone could argue against this logic. This is what this thread is about.
This thread is about single-target dps. The second you mention zak, then it must be pointed out that zak has arms which a hero will mob while a nl is can only do damage to a single target.
4th job Single Target DPS - Dusk - 2008-12-22
XtremeBeast Wrote:This thread is about single-target dps. The second you mention zak, then it must be pointed out that zak has arms which a hero will mob while a nl is can only do damage to a single target.
pineapple, I tried to stay away from any real examples. Er, just Zak body then.
4th job Single Target DPS - RFSurg - 2008-12-22
The 1h hero/pally should use some sort of attack shield.
Maybe not a 22 atk MS shield but it's not impossible to hit 7 70s on other shields.
4th job Single Target DPS - Russt - 2008-12-22
RFSurg Wrote:The 1h hero/pally should use some sort of attack shield.
Maybe not a 22 atk MS shield but it's not impossible to hit 7 70s on other shields.
"Crossheider - 14 att, 12 str"
4th job Single Target DPS - KaidaTan - 2008-12-23
You say you added defense, but I downloaded the file, and I still don't see it anywhere.
4th job Single Target DPS - Dusk - 2008-12-23
It's on the Analysis sheet. Right under "Att bonus from Potion." The numbers directly impact the base range, and you can view the difference in the base damage sheet.
4th job Single Target DPS - KaidaTan - 2008-12-23
Wow, yeah, I'm blind. My bad.
EDIT: Not that anyone cares, but Sacrifice doesn't ignore defense in your calc.
4th job Single Target DPS - iFrancisco - 2008-12-23
I had first learned about this thread on Sleepywood, and have been reading over it lately. If I am not mistaken, because of the small increase from solo damage to party damage for Shadower I noticed this, you used the wrong attack speed for Str Daggers as speed infusion should in fact affect them by 1 total speed (in your calculator it does not). I also have reason to believe that you incorrectly applied SE to their assassinate/BS combo, particularly the 4th hit/lunge which already has a 90% crit rate without SE.
4th job Single Target DPS - Stereo - 2008-12-23
XtremeBeast Wrote:then it must be pointed out that zak has arms which a hero will mob while a nl is can only do damage to a single target.
In the vein of pointing things out, Heros are also more likely to fall off the platform when they're killing the top arms, since they have to stand closer to the edge. (also Zakum's arms are iirc about 1/2 his HP so NLs are stronger for half the fight regardless)
This is just raw DPS, not how they perform at actual bosses.
I'd be interested if people wanted to start a thread about comparing classes on the actual bosses, though.