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+--- Thread: MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel (/showthread.php?tid=62532)
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - Abbeh - 2013-02-15
The names of everyone who was banned is already published publicly each month, I don't see why videos couldn't be.
The only downside i can think of is the time it takes to upload even a small video to YouTube... uploading a video for every ban would take FOREVER. Uploading them as part of an appeal process or if requested should be doable, though. No one really cares to see 9,000 videos of dsakdsdsdkjasjda getting banned.
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - Fiel - 2013-02-15
Eos Wrote:Do you have even the smallest delusion of privacy in an online game today? If so, please tell me how? Every one knows damn well an invisible GM could be lurking on any map, listening on any channel, that anything they do or say can end up resulting in a ban.
The issue is not for expecting privacy in a game. I have never stated anywhere that I expect privacy in Maplestory. By fact all packets that are sent to the server and everything you do in the game is public as walking out on the street. You are arguing against a claim I never made.
The issue is expecting details of your ban to not be made public.
Quote:That'd be your fault for bringing up a scenario unrelated to what this was intended to cover that requires even more.
I bring up a common ban scenario and that's unrelated to the posting of evidence regarding bans? So what is this intended to cover? Please, be more specific.
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - KhainiWest - 2013-02-15
Why do you think if you're banned from the game you're entitled to any privacy? Because of your friends opinion? Because you may have been framed?
Your argument would hold more ground if it was up to the players to decided whether or not he's innocent or not. Opinions don't matter, the fact is the footage is there, if it's later determined that your account has been hijacked, the video would be removed with appropriate updates.
There is not one negative reason why that information shouldn't be public. It shows what you are accused of and lets you form an argument specific to the situation, if you have one at all.
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - Fiel - 2013-02-15
KhainiWest Wrote:Why do you think if you're banned from the game you're entitled to any privacy? Because of your friends opinion? Because you may have been framed?
Because of your reputation. Let's consider OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony. Both acquitted - both still considered guilty by the public. Just because the fact is out there that they were not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and all the facts are out there doesn't mean your reputation is magically fixed and everyone is reasonable.
Quote:Your argument would hold more ground if it was up to the players to decided whether or not he's innocent or not. Opinions don't matter
I hope I'm not misquoting you for the sake of brevity. So a guilty/not guilty verdict isn't an opinion?
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - KhainiWest - 2013-02-15
Fiel Wrote:Because of your reputation.
Let's consider OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony. Both acquitted - both still considered guilty by the public. Just because the fact is out there that they were not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and all the facts are out there doesn't mean your reputation is magically fixed and everyone is reasonable.
Irrelevant. Reputation would not even be a variable here. The only excuse you could have is your account was hijacked, which could easily be rectified, simply remove the video and update the details saying that it was a confirmed the account was compromised. That's nexon's decision, and they have the resources to prove it. But even if you're just arguing specifically against video evidence, it still gives nexon a legitimate reason to lock your account, and for you to bring up a relevant justification of why it happened.
Fiel Wrote:I hope I'm not misquoting you for the sake of brevity. So a guilty/not guilty verdict isn't an opinion?
In this case it isn't. It's data, it's factual. The how/why it was done that is left for opinions, and whether it's entitled for a appeal.
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - Panacea - 2013-02-15
If in the appeal process they show me their video evidence, sure. Otherwise, it's not really anyone else's business as to what a person does or does not do.
I personally don't give a damn whether someone hacks or not and gets banned or gets away with it; too much time and emotions are wasted on gossip.
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - Sorien - 2013-02-15
Well, as Fiel's pointed out, the public videos wouldn't be a completely perfect solution; however, I do think having public videos would actually support the idea of "Innocent until proven guilty." In the current US legal system, the accused have the write to know what they're being accused of and why they are believed to be guilty by the police. Then, in court, the accused are given an unbiased jury that has the evidence presented to them (made public, if you will), and then the jury determines guilt if the evidence is good enough.
Currently the system is more like "Guilty until proven innocent," but the videos would provide something resembling proof. Without something like public video evidence, the current system just comes across like a corrupt legal system (not saying it is, but it looks that way). The accused aren't sure what got them into trouble, the evidence is not known, and the accusers are right because they say that there was in fact evidence, but it can't be shown to anyone.
I do like that Nexon seems to be trying to get on top of their hacking problem, but the massive number of people who appear to be innocent while still getting banned has become unsettling. Yes, privacy is nice, but not at the cost of being unable to trust the people who are supposed to be making the game free of hackers.
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - Chazay - 2013-02-15
For the people!
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - CarrionCrow - 2013-02-15
This would save them so much work too, not having to deal with 4332432 tickets about wrongful bans.
Also, this is not related to the modern day problem with the big brother state. You are already being monitored, making the results public if you break the rules is only prudent. Compare it to sports instead, if you cheat or break the rules you'll get that red card for everyone to see.
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - Worthyness - 2013-02-15
I vote that they not release the videos publicly. However, I do believe that they should show their "evidence" if they are asked to do so by their customer. It's like the police telling you that you robbed a store and have video surveillance, but won't allow you or your lawyer to view the evidence ever, which you can't really do in real life because that's not how court works. I mean, even in court you get to see the evidence present against you at SOME point in the trial. We don't even get a trial at Nexon. Guilty until proven innocent.
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - Curtiss - 2013-02-15
To me this has little to do with privacy as it is far more unsettling to see legits getting banned for seemingly nothing. I think they shouldn't upload all of the videos since the ones like dflkhdlkhlk and 9069049 are most certainly not going to mount protests but having a channel at all at least lets some players determine what they might have done that caused the ban and it also means the bolder hackers might think twice about declaring their innocence when they know the GMs are going to lay the smackdown on them where everyone can see it.
So to be clear, yes to public videos to deter actual hacking incidents and yes to evidence being provided so people aren't entirely clueless.
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - Eos - 2013-02-15
Here we go, let's make this a broader petition;
https://www.change.org/petitions/nexon-america-reveal-your-evidence-against-banned-users-in-a-fair-review-appeal-system
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - IImaplers - 2013-02-15
I'll go a step further and say that GMs should have a super-detailed record of what each and every player and account in existence does. Chat logs, item history, transaction history, what, when, where, how, ALL caught on video if possible. It can be argued that this violates individual privacy, but then again it can also be argued that everyone is anonymous on the internet, so individual privacy is lost regardless of who anyone claims to be. Now if GMS had a better way to identify players, as KMS had with KSSNs, individual privacy would be held in higher regard, but now, relying on word-of-mouth (or more tchnically, "word-of-keyboard") does nothing.
edit: ok, maybe capturing a video of EVERYTHING is overdoing it. But I still think transaction history should be as detailed as possible.
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - Curtiss - 2013-02-15
^ That would be a problem since it'd take too long to record all of it. It would be more easily done though if a system could be set to capture all transactions and I'd be surprised if there were zero records in the first place.
I'm still not seeing the issue of privacy since Nexon isn't actually exposing real names and anything of the like but I would of course prefer if they only published the relevant info when cases are brought out into the open. Otherwise, private correspondences like the ones you get when you contact them should still be private.
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - Link - 2013-02-15
I agree. Evidence of bans should at least, if not made public, be available to the player himself upon request. But this is Nexon we're talking about. Psh... As if they can have a bit of transparency.
IImaplers Wrote:I'll go a step further and say -snip-
Okay, that's going a bit too far.
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - IImaplers - 2013-02-15
Curtiss Wrote:^ That would be a problem since it'd take too long to record all of it. It would be more easily done though if a system could be set to capture all transactions and I'd be surprised if there were zero records in the first place...Well yeah, never said it was realistic to be able to capture every little thing. And they do keep transaction history but apparently it's not substantial enough to capture things like item history or what was dropped/traded and where.
I guess they already record or have the ability to at least record everything happening in a top tier boss' map like CPB/Empress/Magnus. It would be laughable if they can only record video of a map if a GM is in it and the GM starts recording it themselves.
[MENTION=2150]Link[/MENTION] How/why would that be going too far in your opinion?
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - Link - 2013-02-15
IImaplers Wrote:[MENTION=2150]Link[/MENTION] How/why would that be going too far in your opinion?
Because there's just far too much data to retrieve to make it worthwhile. You would have all of those people grabbing at the company for all of that every time something goes wrong (which is all of the time). Having to dig that far back once is excruciating. Having to do it all of the time for every person who gets in trouble is just pure hell.
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - IImaplers - 2013-02-15
Link Wrote:Because there's just far too much data to retrieve to make it worthwhile. You would have all of those people grabbing at the company for all of that every time something goes wrong (which is all of the time). Having to dig that far back once is excruciating. Having to do it all of the time for every person who gets in trouble is just pure hell.But that's Nexon's problem, it's not the players' problem. I'm not saying they have to release every little footage at every little request. Nexon has Billions at their disposal, so I know this is possible. But you're right, it's also chaotic and seems to be overdoing it.
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - emailbox - 2013-02-15
IImaplers Wrote:Nexon has Billions at their disposal, so I know this is possible.
I'd like some sources for this.
MapleStory Banning YouTube Channel - MissingLink - 2013-02-15
WubYou4ever Wrote:I vote make it public because we can't let Nexon get away and ban someone for NO reason at all like Tyler's situation. We prob want to know why or what he did to get him banned.
I doubt this would help in his case. They would only have video evidence for bans made by patrolling GMs, not bans resulting from running some sort of database scan, and not from autobans. They probably have no evidence whatsoever for lag autobans (which are apparently sometimes permanent now); strickly your word vs some faulty code, and probably nothing they would be willing to share concerning database-scan bans.