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+--- Thread: Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return (/showthread.php?tid=38981)
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - Beg - 2011-03-09
All Estaves are identical in the hands of a Battlemage.
Glad to see elemental weapons are actually elemental again. Can't say more about it until patch is up.
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - Sarah - 2011-03-09
Assuming it actually works as intended, I'm happy.
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - Chilly - 2011-03-09
Luffy Wrote:A/M's also get this speed advantage, so I don't see how speed is being treated differently for BaM's. I understand the fact that our main attacking skills actually utilize the speed advantage unlike many of the A/M's skills. But that is then relevant to our class skills, nothing else.
This is not going to end well, but I will place my foot in the fire...
As Dusk contends that E.Weapons have no place in the game, a fine opinion that he is entitled to have (though I disagree with), it is my contention (that you will disagree with) that E.Staves should not be fast. There are no "advantages" (aside from F/P's Explosion or poking boxes) that AMs get from speed and thus Battle Mages must be treated differently because their attacking mechanics are different.
Am I calling for a change to the weapon, no, not really. Much like this reinstatement of bonus situation, I simply want acknowledgment, not from Nexon this time, but from the Battle Mage community that they were not developed with fast weapons as a norm.
SwordStaker Wrote:I don't think BaMs will be hurt at all.
Didn't say they would be...
Fiel Wrote:Elemental weapons changed. They now give a 10% bonus to the main element and a 5% bonus to the secondary element.
Now I may have a reason just to update to a E.Staff 7 and forgo the 8, I am surely no damage junkie, either staff is likely better than my poorly scrolled E.Wand 8 and 5% doesn't seem like a big difference in the grand scheme of things, at least not as bad as the original 15% difference. I guess it's math time...
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - SwordStaker - 2011-03-09
Chilly Wrote:This is not going to end well, but I will place my foot in the fire...I never disagreed with you 0.o. I was reinforcing your post.
As Dusk contends that E.Weapons have no place in the game, a fine opinion that he is entitled to have (though I disagree with), it is my contention (that you will disagree with) that E.Staves should not be fast. There are no "advantages" (aside from F/P's Explosion or poking boxes) that AMs get from speed and thus Battle Mages must be treated differently because their attacking mechanics are different.
Am I calling for a change to the weapon, no, not really. Much like this reinstatement of bonus situation, I simply want acknowledgment, not from Nexon this time, but from the Battle Mage community that they were not developed with fast weapons as a norm.
Didn't say they would be...
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - Luffy - 2011-03-09
Chilly Wrote:This is not going to end well, but I will place my foot in the fire...
As Dusk contends that E.Weapons have no place in the game, a fine opinion that he is entitled to have (though I disagree with), it is my contention (that you will disagree with) that E.Staves should not be fast. There are no "advantages" (aside from F/P's Explosion or poking boxes) that AMs get from speed and thus Battle Mages must be treated differently because their attacking mechanics are different.
Am I calling for a change to the weapon, no, not really. Much like this reinstatement of bonus situation, I simply want acknowledgment, not from Nexon this time, but from the Battle Mage community that they were not developed with fast weapons as a norm.
Didn't say they would be...
By no means am I trying to start a flame war or a discussion about who deserves what.
I am simply calling for the clarity of the discussion of elestaff 'bonuses' and the word 'bonus'. A distinction must be made between the 'bonuses' of the elemental and the weapon speed. Weapon Speed is not a bonus but a natural attribute of the weapon. If an A/M chooses to use normal attack, it will swing at a fast pace just like a Battle Mage would. The Battle Mage is not getting a special kind of 'bonus' if you will. The Battle Mage's skills simply utilizes the speed better. The fast speed obviously affects DPM just like it would for any other class, even as minimal as the DPM boost would be. The elemental bonus on the other hand is an actual percentage bonus for a certain elemental type.
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - Abysseon - 2011-03-09
Dusk Wrote:You need incentive to use weapons that are already better than regular wands/staves? My beef with the items is that they render other mage weapons useless.
Oh, and the post lacks clarification. If I'm using a poison staff I get:
+10% poison
-5% ice, lightning, holy
effect on fire?
effect on dark?
*update from -Hime-:
Quote:The bonus is for both attributes on the weapon.
So I guess now both ice/lightning and fire/poison elemental weapons give the same bonuses regardless of color?
Ex. Elemental Wand 6 -> +10% Poison/Fire, -5% Ice/Lightning/Holy?
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - aslemn - 2011-03-09
What the hell is this patch supposed to be? Impressively high amounts of hypocrisy?
> "Hurr durr, we removed 2x cards to make the game balanced as well as the elemental bonuses of the weapons. Enjoy"
> "We implemented 2x cards and Elemental bonuses back! Breaking our previous arguments and nullifying absolutely everything that we said!"
I just don't get it. Well, nothing agains't Elemental Bonuses, i actually like them, but really, what the hell is this?
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - FenixR - 2011-03-09
aslemn Wrote:What the hell is this patch supposed to be? Impressively high amounts of hypocrisy?
> "Hurr durr, we removed 2x cards to make the game balanced as well as the elemental bonuses of the weapons. Enjoy"
> "We implemented 2x cards and Elemental bonuses back! Breaking our previous arguments and nullifying absolutely everything that we said!"
I just don't get it. Well, nothing agains't Elemental Bonuses, i actually like them, but really, what the hell is this?
That only teach you to never Expect anything from nexon, really. If it makes money its good, if it doesn't its bad. Thats how nexon thinks.
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - Chilly - 2011-03-09
Luffy Wrote:The fast speed obviously affects DPM just like it would for any other class, even as minimal as the DPM boost would be. The elemental bonus on the other hand is an actual percentage bonus for a certain elemental type.
I really hope I'm misunderstanding you when I'm reading this as you stating that the weapon speed is justified because AMs can still whack faster and this is more DPS even if that is not out main attack.
Abysseon Wrote:*update from -Hime-:
So I guess now both ice/lightning and fire/poison elemental weapons give the same bonuses regardless of color?
Ex. Elemental Wand 6 -> +10% Poison/Fire, -5% Ice/Lightning/Holy?
Fiel Wrote:Elemental weapons changed. They now give a 10% bonus to the main element and a 5% bonus to the secondary element.
Eosian Wrote:So they dropped elemental wands/staves down from 110/125 to 105/110 according to the wz.
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - Hanate - 2011-03-09
So the Bishops that ended up buying that staff or wand don't get effected still?
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - Eos - 2011-03-09
They fully retained their .75 to "all other elements" in the WZs (ie: ones not specifically boosted) but since Nexon had to recode the logic for that it's anyone's guess whether or not they included holy and/or dark this time, or whether any piece of it will even work as it should.
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - Twilight - 2011-03-09
They acknowledged that they're OP for BaMs, yet they have not addressed how/if they made any changes to compensate for this. I am suspicious and will continue to stay away from them.
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - Luffy - 2011-03-09
Chilly Wrote:I really hope I'm misunderstanding you when I'm reading this as you stating that the weapon speed is justified because AMs can still whack faster and this is more DPS even if that is not out main attack.
Omfg lol. This is making me lol. Naw, I'm not trying to justify anything for any class!
I'm simply saying that the word 'bonus' used in elemental 'bonus' that a/m's get, is not the same as the 'bonus' from weapon speed.
When you say BaM's get a 33% bonus in damage, it sounds like we get a class specific boost like A/M's get with their elemental boosts from the staff. We have a 33% dpm boost because of our skills which utilize the speed of staves efficiently, not because the Elestaff contains a bonus like the A/M's elemental boost.
The speed of a weapon is something all classes will feel the effects of no matter how minimal the dpm change may be. A/M's dpm will change if Elestaff's speed were made normal/slow. This is my point.
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - BBD - 2011-03-09
This is kind of modivating me to play my mage again. [SIZE="1"](Not really...
)[/SIZE]
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - Five Second Pose - 2011-03-09
aslemn Wrote:> "We implemented 2x cards .. back!
1.3x and 1.5x cards.
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - Chilly - 2011-03-09
Eosian Wrote:They fully retained their .75 to "all other elements" in the WZs (ie: ones not specifically boosted) but since Nexon had to recode the logic for that it's anyone's guess whether or not they included holy and/or dark this time, or whether any piece of it will even work as it should.
So the -5% is actually -25% for non-corresponding elements?
Luffy Wrote:A/M's dpm will change if Elestaff's speed were made normal/slow. This is my point.
I was hoping this wasn't the case, but if would appear you don't understand the way AM skills work. No skill, other than Explosion factors in a weapon's speed. For CL, Para, ID, FD, BB and any other skill that an AM would realistically use to deal any damage there is a set delay value altered only by Booster. That is why comparing Battle Mages and AM does not work.
Twilight understands, Battle Mages were not designed to use a fast weapon and compared to all other magic-users the 33% is pretty much class specific when you consider slow as the designated weapon speed.
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - Luffy - 2011-03-10
Chilly Wrote:So the -5% is actually -25% for non-corresponding elements?
I was hoping this wasn't the case, but if would appear you don't understand the way AM skills work. No skill, other than Explosion factors in a weapon's speed. For CL, Para, ID, FD, BB and any other skill that an AM would realistically use to deal any damage there is a set delay value altered only by Booster. That is why comparing Battle Mages and AM does not work.
Twilight understands, Battle Mages were not designed to use a fast weapon and compared to all other magic-users the 33% is pretty much class specific when you consider slow as the designated weapon speed.
I was actually hoping that I made it apparent that I understood that most A/M's skills do not use the fast speed from the Staff. But like you said, explosion still does factor the speed into account. This is why I emphasized over and over again (and used normal attack as an example because I knew that the fast weapon speed did not affect most A/M skills) that no matter how minute the DPM change would be from the fast speed of elestaves, that it still affects them. I am not comparing BaM's and AM's. You still fail to see my motives. I am not arguing for any one side.
I am just asking that people change their rhetoric when discussing such topics.
I'm pretty sure that elestaves being fast was not intended only for AM's; like you said, most of their skills are unaffected by the weapon speed. So why have a fast staff for classes that don't take advantage of it. If this was really intended only for AM's, Nexon would have created a restriction for BaM's from using it. But we are a mage class after all, and not allowing us to equip a staff is ridiculous.
OP or not, each class serve different purposes. There are attackers, and there are support classes. What purpose BaM's serve is a different issue so let's not delve into that. DPM is not the only factor as to deciding if classes are balanced or not.
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - Luffy - 2011-03-10
Chilly Wrote:So the -5% is actually -25% for non-corresponding elements?
I was hoping this wasn't the case, but if would appear you don't understand the way AM skills work. No skill, other than Explosion factors in a weapon's speed. For CL, Para, ID, FD, BB and any other skill that an AM would realistically use to deal any damage there is a set delay value altered only by Booster. That is why comparing Battle Mages and AM does not work.
Twilight understands, Battle Mages were not designed to use a fast weapon and compared to all other magic-users the 33% is pretty much class specific when you consider slow as the designated weapon speed.
Double Post? Weird.
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - Eos - 2011-03-10
Luffy Wrote:I'm pretty sure that elestaves being fast was not intended only for AM's since like you said, most of their skills are unaffected by the weapon speed. So why have a fast staff for classes that don't take advantage of it. If this was really intended only for AM's, Nexon would have created a restriction for BaM's from using it.
Elestaves were created before there were any non-AM stave wielders by JMS, not KMS, so trying to relate them to the whole story when that story was being made up by an entirely different group of people who had details the original authors had no way to know about is silly.
Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return - Luffy - 2011-03-10
Eosian Wrote:Elestaves were created before there were any non-AM stave wielders by JMS, not KMS, so trying to relate them to the whole story when that story was being made up by an entirely different group of people who had details the original authors had no way to know about is silly.
I understand the premise you are trying to make. But remember that this premise goes both ways. So you can't say for a fact that the original 'authors' intended the Elestaves to be used by only A/M's and not used by any future stave wielding classes.
Btw, I don't didn't mention anything about KMS.