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+--- Thread: Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? (/showthread.php?tid=3885)
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - butterfλi - 2008-10-02
Dervish Wrote:That's just simple ignorance, but, in their defence, making arms a little bit faster isn't worth bringing along an Arch-Mage without better reason, anyway.by agreeing that both NLs and archmages are 'broken' in their own way, then implying in "but archmages are MORE broken" just sounds like youre trying to start an argument.
by the logic, archmages shouldnt party other classes because they'll only slow archmages down and not having hs just makes them purely leeching and not giving anything back. of course, that's just simple ignorance, right?
1: Any class that can train several times faster than all of the others is imbalanced and broken.
NL -- kill bosses several times faster than archmages. but also factor that HTs and zak actually MAKE money. thats a major upside when a strong HT attacker can make 10-20mil per weekly runs.
2: Any class that can effortlessly kick out every single other class on 99% of the maps in the game is imbalanced and broken.
before 4th job, hermits were known for ksing himes, grims, zombies, etc.
3: It's not just thieves and archers that Mages/Bishops train faster than, it's everything.
warriors are still capable of decent training speed. getting 5-6mil an hour soloing peak isnt faster but it isnt slow either.
4: Being able to party them doesn't fix the fact that it's broken. Are NLs broken too? Yes. Does that make the magician fourth jobs any less broken? No.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Kawasari Mimoto - 2008-10-02
Afrobean Wrote:ps arguing that NL aren't broken because of the cost is a flawed concept... they cost so much because they're in high demand, and they're in high demand BECAUSE they are so powerful+effective. You can't say "look they cost so much so its not broken" when the only reason they cost so much is BECAUSE they are so strong.
See.. people overlook the fact that NLs really aren't that perfect. The only reason they're so in-demand is most likely of the preteens that likes watching Naruto, thus more Assassins, Hermits, etc. >_> The higher the population, the more in-demand the godly-weapons becomes. In reality, they're not all that great.. The only situation where I see a NL > Bishop is at bosses, because they will kill faster, and more efficiently, period.
Now, imagine any other class training at Skeles. Two scenarios:
1) A 15X NL walks in and KS'es Skelegons.
2) A 15X Bishop walks in and KS'es Skelegons.
Spoiler
Which one will most likely have more of an affect on you? I'm sure it's the Bishops. Also, Bishops have Invincible, Bless, and HS, nevermind counting in Gen.. That's a major defense boost as well as an Ultimate that costs less MP than the other Mage-Ultimates.
Sure, if you put it as:
-NLs = Bossing
-Bishops = Wide-terrain maps
Then your outlook may be a bit conceited because it seems like NLs are broken, correct? But Bishops also have a lot of advantages, I listed some of them.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - DrRusty - 2008-10-02
Afrobean Wrote:No. Bishops do not have a built in advantage, aside from the meso cost. The advantage largely identified is circumstantial; Yes, Skele are weak to holy and nothing good is weak to Fire or Ice, but that's not an intrinsic property of Bishops. It's a flaw of the monster population, not a flaw of the class.
Bishops don't have a built in advantage? Where have you been? Mesos cost isn't the only advantage bishops have. It's getting into any party (boss run included) alot easier than a mage will. Bishops train faster than every class in the game INCLUDING mages.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - KajitiSouls - 2008-10-02
Stereo Wrote:Heaven's Hammer (maxed) has a 70 second cooldown, the same range & similar damage, but can never kill the monsters. It still takes 2-3 seconds to cast. Is that balanced?
Actually HH casting speed is highly dependent on your weapon speed. I can reduce this casting time down to 1 second or less xD (mostly at crogs though, anywhere else is impractical)
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Devil - 2008-10-02
DrRusty Wrote:It is when their single target damage far outweighs that of a bishop/mage.Data taken from my DPM thread:
- Single Target (Bossing) damage difference:
-- Bishop - Spamming Genesis on BOSS target (non elemental): 32.393% DPM (costs 777.700 MP per 10 minutes Onyx Apple Time)
---> Spamming Genesis is even cheaper then using Onyx Apples...
-- 2H Paladin - Spamming Blast on BOSS target (non elemental): 77.161% DPM (costs 3m mesos per 10 minutes Onyx Apple Time).
DMG Ratio Difference at Bosses - 2.38x For a Paladin
EXP Gain Difference at Training - 5x For a Bishop
So, actually Genesis should only have halve it's power / halve it's speed (3 seconds cast + 3 seconds cooldown after each attack).
And THEN when they have same stength, EVEN then, Bishops would still have Holy Symbol / Heal & Revive...
That's why don't get why there isn't a cooldown of, lets say, 5 seconds after each Genesis cast...
That would equal classes more closely then what it is now...
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Afrobean - 2008-10-02
Dervish Wrote:It's because NLs and BMs and Heroes being great at bossing doesn't have an immediate effect on you, whereas a Mage/Bishop coming into your map and deciding they want it, does, especially when they can literally KS you out without effort.This is a problem in ALL areas of the game. You cannot say "look what other players can do to me that is naughty" and say that it's broken on those grounds.
I could walk into Ant Tunnel and block all 1st and 2nd jobbers from grinding there. Any 4th jobber could. Does that mean 4th job is broken in general? No, that means that with power (forgive me) comes responsibility. Don't blame the class when someone does something evil to you, blame the evil person.
Quote:That's just simple ignorance, but, in their defence, making arms a little bit faster isn't worth bringing along an Arch-Mage without better reason, anyway.A Mage with summon isn't THAT bad at single target either, at least compared to classes that aren't NL. They're not anywhere near the best at single target, but CRAZY fullscreen AoE plus fair single target means they can be useful. They can be useful... if they're allowed to be. They need to be able to use their fullscreen attacks whenever it is helpful (that is, arms and potentially during Zakum's adds), and they need to be able to use their summons (which can increase their single target DPS by a rate of about 1.5x, or in other words, it's roughly as effective to them as Shadow Partner is to NL, except moreso because their summon can hit adds at the same time it hits Zakum itself).
Quote:1: Any class that can train several times faster than all of the others is imbalanced and broken.MapleStory is not balanced. Not at ANY point of this game is it balanced. Archers have a hard ass time until 4th job, Pages always have a hard time, Mages get shafted on elements, Bishops get pumpernickel for attacks other than Genesis, Warriors get pumpernickel mobility until 4th, Bandits suck balls 99% of the time and are so bogged down with attacks that it takes a pineappleing genius with a keyboard with 1200 keys on it to use effectively. Did I miss anyone? pumpernickel, man. Magicians are broken? The whole goddamned game is broken.
Quote:2: Any class that can effortlessly kick out every single other class on 99% of the maps in the game is imbalanced and broken.Assassins in 2nd job. Magician in 1st. FP in 3rd. Who cares? When I play my Bishop, I don't walk into a crowded map, start spamming Genesis, and tell everyone there to go away because there's no chance they can beat me. Don't blame the class when a person uses their power irresponsibly. If I'm trying to take down a Headless Horseman and a Paladin walks in and destroys it, does that mean Paladin are broken for that? You heard it, guys, all classes are broken because they could all KS my Headless Horseman from me.
Quote:4: Being able to party them doesn't fix the fact that it's broken. Are NLs broken too? Yes. Does that make the magician fourth jobs any less broken? No.Being able to party them means that EVERYONE benefits from them being strong. That's why it's stupid to complain that NL are broken. EVERYONE benefits from the faster boss runs. The only thing worth complaining about would be to be refused from the parties, sort of like how CERTAIN CLASSES are refused at bosses, or how certain pigheaded folks might not take certain classes as grinding partners because they're "too weak".
Kasuhitomi Wrote:The only situation where I see a NL > Bishop is at bosses, because they will kill faster, and more efficiently, period.What about 1st, 2nd, and 3rd job wherein a Rogue/Assassin/Hermit can drastically outdamage a Magician/Cleric/Priest? Honestly, I'm not even sure a Priest going all out with MG, SR, and Summon Dragon [on Holy-weak] could beat a Hermit of comparable strength. To put it frankly, all Magicians take a lot of additional stats from gear to be a little more stronger, while other classes, particularly the star chuckers, gain MAJOR amounts of damage for a little bit of stats.
Quote:1) A 15X NL walks in and KS'es Skelegons.Stop right there. Anyone doing what you're describing is already breaking not only the officially mandated rules, but also the basic rules of etiquette. You cannot argue about this sort of thing based on who can BREAK THE RULES BETTER.
2) A 15X Bishop walks in and KS'es Skelegons.
EDIT:
Quote:Bishops train faster than every class in the gameYeah, hi, this is because of available monsters, not because of an intrinsic value of Bishops. If Skele were weak to Fire and Ice instead of Holy, Mages would be hitting nearly 2x as hard as Bishops would be (assuming elemental weapon). Where do you think Bishops would be in this sort of world? A world that has plenty of Fire and Ice monsters but no Holy-- Bishops would be in a rut potentially even deeper than the one Mages are currently in.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - KajitiSouls - 2008-10-02
Afrobean Wrote:MapleStory is not balanced. Not at ANY point of this game is it balanced. Archers have a hard ass time until 4th job, Pages always have a hard time, Mages get shafted on elements, Bishops get pumpernickel for attacks other than Genesis, Warriors get pumpernickel mobility until 4th, Bandits suck balls 99% of the time and are so bogged down with attacks that it takes a pineappleing genius with a keyboard with 1200 keys on it to use effectively. Did I miss anyone? pumpernickel, man. Magicians are broken? The whole goddamned game is broken.
You do realize that if all those deficiencies were fixed the character classes would be a bit too homogenous. Sure, the attack methods will greatly vary, but there are suppose to be drawbacks that are suppose to help people realize the limits of their abilities. It's like in Full Metal Alchemist; they take the "arm for an arm" thing pretty seriously (admittedly Nexon hasn't been too good at that in some places). You could use your argument to practically invalidate all of Blizzard's works.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - DrRusty - 2008-10-02
Afrobean Wrote:MapleStory is not balanced. Not at ANY point of this game is it balanced. Archers have a hard ass time until 4th job, Pages always have a hard time, Mages get shafted on elements, Bishops get pumpernickel for attacks other than Genesis, Warriors get pumpernickel mobility until 4th, Bandits suck balls 99% of the time and are so bogged down with attacks that it takes a pineappleing genius with a keyboard with 1200 keys on it to use effectively. Did I miss anyone? pumpernickel, man. Magicians are broken? The whole goddamned game is broken.
I think afrobean is calling me a genius
jk
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Arroz - 2008-10-02
Devil Wrote:First of all: This is not a discussion topic about 4th job AoE's being overpowered, because they are, and they ruined gMS, players training with an AoE get like 10x more exp then ppl without one... but ok... enough of that.
Argument destroyed as soon as it was posted well done
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - LittlePrincess - 2008-10-02
KajitiSouls Wrote:You do realize that if all those deficiencies were fixed the character classes would be a bit too homogenous. Sure, the attack methods will greatly vary, but there are suppose to be drawbacks that are suppose to help people realize the limits of their abilities. It's like in Full Metal Alchemist; they take the "arm for an arm" thing pretty seriously (admittedly Nexon hasn't been too good at that in some places). You could use your argument to practically invalidate all of Blizzard's works.
That's the whole point! The classes are SUPPOSED to be different and they are SUPPOSED to be good at different things. So either NONE of it is broken or ALL of it is broken.
The balance between training at bosses and training on mobs comes from those who are excelent at traning on mobs suck at bosses and those who are excelent at training on bosses suck at mobs. Then there are other classes that are in the middle of those two extreems somewhere.
Bishops are not any more broken than NLs. Do I think either should be "fixed"? NO! The game is fun because it has large veriey and those who don't enjoy their class can just make a new char. I have lots of chars so I can experience all he ones that appeal to me.
And to whoever said, "that would be like saying angle ray should be like TT" you rock! That made me snicker. =D So take gen away but I want angle ray to have the same damage as TT + shadow partner, and I want a pot that gives the same increase on it as an apple does on a NL that lasts just as long!
(Then I'm gonna make all bishop HT runs.)And to everyone who is listing door, bless, and res as advantages of being a bishop: you are crazy! Those are advantages of partying with a bishop not being a bishop. Res is useless to us since we can't use it on ourselves. Bless is useless too, 20 def? oh boy! And door? Well it doesn't get me anywhere, I'm always dooring other people but the bishop still has to walk there or scroll there or already be there. And heal is a slight advantage, but it's not major since 80% of the damage goes to your mp if you are training anywhere useful (like skelles who do 3k m atk for my 2k hp). And Holy Symbol? Well that works great, but ONLY in a party, which means that I only benefit if others benefit as well. (Otherwise, 9% increase FTL.)
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Stereo - 2008-10-02
LittlePrincess Wrote:And to everyone who is listing door, bless, and res as advantages of being a bishop: you are crazy! Those are advantages of partying with a bishop not being a bishop. Res is useless to us since we can't use it on ourselves. Bless is useless too, 20 def? oh boy! And door? Well it doesn't get me anywhere, I'm always dooring other people but the bishop still has to walk there or scroll there or already be there. And heal is a slight advantage, but it's not major since 80% of the damage goes to your mp if you are training anywhere useful (like skelles who do 3k m atk for my 2k hp). And Holy Symbol? Well that works great, but ONLY in a party, which means that I only benefit if others benefit as well. (Otherwise, 9% increase FTL.)
So when's the last time you trained without a party? If you didn't ahve those party skills like HS do you think as many people would want to party with you?
And I'm pretty sure maxed door lasts long enough to repot, or at least to get to the storage guy in the town. In any case, not having to wait for party members to get to your map is a benefit even if you're not willing to acknowledge it.
I mentioned dispel/heal with respect to boss runs, and because no other class has skills like them (except Drain.. oh look NLs)
I'm level 122 and I have never been in a party with an Archmage/Bishop (spamming ultimates..). I don't want to. They're broken skills and I'm not going to illegitimize my character just to get faster exp. You might say that if I don't like how fast they train, I should just party with them and get the exp too, but that doesn't work for me. I don't feel right leeching from a skill that's not meant to be spammed in the first place.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - nannerz - 2008-10-02
Stereo Wrote:I solo still, and soloed most of 3rd job too. I don't really have time to train for long these days so I feel bad ditching a party after like 30 mins. And btw, from my experiences it seems AM's are popular enough for partying in leafre despite not having HS.
So when's the last time you trained without a party? If you didn't ahve those party skills like HS do you think as many people would want to party with you?
Stereo Wrote:Actually, I mostly door people who don't come to train with me. Usually they are friends/guildies/random people that want a door to newties/skele. I am usually the one that ends up walking.
And I'm pretty sure maxed door lasts long enough to repot, or at least to get to the storage guy in the town. In any case, not having to wait for party members to get to your map is a benefit even if you're not willing to acknowledge it.
Stereo Wrote:So what do you expect us to use instead of genesis?
I don't feel right leeching from a skill that's not meant to be spammed in the first place.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Tikey - 2008-10-02
Stereo Wrote:I'm level 122 and I have never been in a party with an Archmage/Bishop (spamming ultimates..). I don't want to. They're broken skills and I'm not going to illegitimize my character just to get faster exp. You might say that if I don't like how fast they train, I should just party with them and get the exp too, but that doesn't work for me. I don't feel right leeching from a skill that's not meant to be spammed in the first place.
So you're saying now we're in the same boat as hackers and glitchers? I never knew using a skill efficiently was playing the game illegitimately. The ultimates ARE spammable because they don't have a standard skill cooldown. If they did, the intention would be they weren't meant to be spammed..
If I remember correctly, Mages and Bishops in other versions, like JMS and KMS, also spam their ultimates to train. They just have to spend more to do so.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - LittlePrincess - 2008-10-02
Stereo Wrote:So when's the last time you trained without a party? If you didn't ahve those party skills like HS do you think as many people would want to party with you?
And I'm pretty sure maxed door lasts long enough to repot, or at least to get to the storage guy in the town. In any case, not having to wait for party members to get to your map is a benefit even if you're not willing to acknowledge it.
I mentioned dispel/heal with respect to boss runs, and because no other class has skills like them (except Drain.. oh look NLs)
I'm level 122 and I have never been in a party with an Archmage/Bishop (spamming ultimates..). I don't want to. They're broken skills and I'm not going to illegitimize my character just to get faster exp. You might say that if I don't like how fast they train, I should just party with them and get the exp too, but that doesn't work for me. I don't feel right leeching from a skill that's not meant to be spammed in the first place.
Well I'm not the average bishop but as you seemed to direct these questions to me I will answer them.
My bishop trains in a party with my R/L husband's DK almost exclusivly. Occationally I will add a friend maybe once every 2-3 months for some reason or another. But usually I duo with just him. I do not party random people or sell leech. My selection of friends tend to be for inspering wisper conversations but not good training partners, so it's very rare for me to train with a friend. I don't care for huge social contact so I'm not part of a huge guild nor do I even know what goes on in one as far as people finding training partners.
And I think I would get a party with him just as easily with my other chars because I do paty him with my other chars. Occationally we use my bishop or his priest as an HS mule, but not all the time.
And I don't know any bishops who re-pot in Leafree, that sounds more expensive than necessary. I obtain pots from NLC where there is no bishop training grounds. I usually just bring enough pots with me for 3 days of training and then go back to the FM to trade pots with my mule who hanges out in NLC for the sole purpose of purchasing pots. Or sometimes my husband will bring me some on his DK since he gets the benefit of my doors (given to him by my mule). But I cannot door back, log out, get pots, transfer, and go back because the door vanishes upon logging out. So this only works if I happen to have a spare computer available which is not all the time as I usually use it for my store.
I don't think that partying with a bishop or arch mage for training is any more broken than partying with an NL for bossing. Each does their own specility more effeciently for faster exp with less cost.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Cyanne - 2008-10-02
I think that third job was quite excellently designed for its time when there were no 4th jobbers. Priests had shining ray, which was generally weaker than other classes' attacks but still allowed them to train just as fast because of holy symbol. Also, when 4th job came, I think that priests got too easy of time because of their holy symbol and partying with 4th jobbers, but again, 3rd job was great for its time. Classes were pretty balanced both bossing and training wise, and priests were taken for their support skills. I'm talking about before apples by the way.
I think that 4th job was a total mess of imbalances, unoriginality, and useless skills. The ultimates should be removed entirely, and, like in 3rd job, archmages and bishops should get skills that allowed them to train just as efficiently as other classes. Right now, archmages and bishops get around double the experience rates of other classes, which is completely ridiculous. Paralyze and chain lightning should be especially powered up. As far as bossing goes, apples completely destroyed the balance, giving night lords way too much of an edge. Apples should be removed entirely because they benefit night lords much more than other classes, especially archmages.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - xdarkelement - 2008-10-02
pointless thread. The AoE skills aernt even that cheap. Look at the NL dmg.
AoE's would be useless if it had a cooldown. It costs alot for us mages too.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - PieM4ster - 2008-10-02
This game is broken, but not in a so broken its fair way. Secondary Statless classes are almost always superior to their regular counterparts, Mainly lukless mages being superior even with just a Lvl 8 wand. I used to play a tournament WCIII Map called Ultimate Footies .79. This game was basically built around the fact that every character could do some things that were utterly insane in comparison to others, but were mostly balanced. One character could kill any other character in combat because of his stunning skills. Another could take out entire armies because of an AOE attack he had. But unlike in Maple, these individual "broken" abilities were equally matched by other broken abilities.
But that isn't the point. Genesis is absurd in its power level in its current form, just because of what kinds of monsters we have. Bishops have skeles, which they are pretty much built to kill with ease. Because there are no top tier monsters that are better than Skelegons but just holy strong or immune, Bishops are indisputably the best class at grinding. Bishops do train the fastest because of the current state of the game. But hypothetically, they could easily be a support class in training if new monsters that had over 99k HP and were holy strong or immune came out that could be very easily killed by Heroes or Drks (Spawning in groups of 3 minimum with insane HP to EXP ratios). But in the case of Bishops, they would still be needed because of Holy Symbol. Even if Bishops got a situational nerf (the new top tier monsters being holy immune) they would still be very important. Bishops are like the Sorceress in Diablo II. When Diablo II first came out, Sorceresses were not only amazing at PvP and killing monsters, they were also very good at finding items. Even after the situational nerf of the Sorceress (every monster in the final stage of the game was given some magic immunity) they were still viable party members and usefull at finding things., even though their killing power was greatly diminished.
Archmage ultimates are another story. Because they lack the element bonus, they can not kill as efficiently as Bishops. But if an archmage can't train, what else can they do? They are bad(for the person who will inevitably call me out on this, bad is a relative term) at single target killing, and worse at bosses. So unlike bishops, if you take away an archmage's ultimate, they really don't have much of anything in comparison to other classes. If a monster comes out that is like Skelegons but holy strong/immune and gives greater exp per kill with a similar or better map, Archmages will be better than bishops at the main thing they are good at: Training.
So a long story short
Because of the current state of the game, and because of what is currently released, Ultimates are broken. Not because the skills themselves are broken.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Stereo - 2008-10-02
PieM4ster Wrote:Because of the current state of the game, and because of what is currently released, Ultimates are broken. Not because the skills themselves are broken.
Yes, because they released the ultimates, they are broken.
If they'd never let Magicians advance to 4th job they wouldn't have any broken skills
Yes, I put anyone who parties Arch Mage/Bishops for leeching exp in the same boat as glitchers.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - Kawasari Mimoto - 2008-10-02
There's a very easy way to fix this.. You know those new monsters and maps in MapleSEA? Why can't gMS have higher-up monsters that are about a Skelegon's level, but not weak to Holy, but instead weak to Fire and Ice. That way, all 3 classes (that has Ultimates), will be satisfied. And Night Lords will probably have more maps/places to train at, and people will complain less (because as humans, we always and will complain...).
EDIT: To clarify on what I'm talking about, it's those walking FAT trees monsters, plus the FAT tree boss.
Why didn't 4th Job AoE's get a cooldown? - PieM4ster - 2008-10-02
Stereo Wrote:Yes, because they released the ultimates, they are broken.
If they'd never let Magicians advance to 4th job they wouldn't have any broken skills
Yes, I put anyone who parties Arch Mage/Bishops for leeching exp in the same boat as glitchers.
Uh no. They aren't broken because they were released, they are broken because of the game state. Let me give you an example of how Paladins could be broken. Make a map of magic immune monsters that spawn in such a vast number on a small walled in platform that a NL or BM could not attack with anything besides punches, whacks, and Rain/Erruption. These monsters are also Holy Weak, Ice Weak, Fire Weak, and Lightning Weak. The monsters also dispel buffs and do enough touch damage to kill anyone that isn't a Paladin or Hero in one hit without buffs. So only a Paladin or Hero can train here, but Paladins would do higher DPS because of advanced charge blow with holy charge. These monsters also give more exp (how about double?) than Skelegons with the same HP.
Just like a Bishop gets broken exp at Skelegons for a high cost, so would you at this theoretical monster. Is it harder to make a monster a broken training spot for Paladins? Hell yes. But if this was a map in GMS, Paladins would be "broken" at training.