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Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - Printable Version

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Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - Devil - 2008-09-22

Dusk Wrote:Because he's been talking about 6 Viper parties and infinite Transform for months, with no regard to how hard it is to get 6 HP-washed Vipers with max Super Transform and Time Leap in the same party, how hard it would be to get them to coordinate their STs and TLs perfectly, and how a 4 NL/BM/DrK party would probably outpower that anyway. And he still hasn't fixed his DPS thread so archers and DrKs still look underpowered. Other than that, I don't see how I'm hating on him at all. Just two things that bother me.

And my bad, so I was wrong.
If you have any comments on the calculations in the DPM thread, feel free to post the mistakes there! Smile

And have you ever heard of the terms "in theory" and "for example"? I was only using them to show you that you can use the transform skills independently...

Oh yeah, and don't take things too seriously please? Tongue

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - ahoboandahal - 2008-09-22

Takebacker Wrote:It's strong, but sure as hell isn't the fastest. ACB, pierce, and maybe even BoT outclass it.

BoT is one of the fastest and best mob moves in the game.

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - Dusk - 2008-09-23

Devil Wrote:If you have any comments on the calculations in the DPM thread, feel free to post the mistakes there! Smile

I did, I said you should use average instead of max damages.

ahoboandahal Wrote:BoT is one of the fastest and best mob moves in the game.
Yes, in 3rd job. In 4th job it's outclassed by pretty much every mob skill.

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - SasukeJnr - 2008-09-23

Personally I prefer Demo than fist coz it's more flashy Biggrin.
Anyway I hear that fist is quick in damage but doesn't do as much as demo whereas demo hits harder than fist but it's slower in damaging enemies am I right?

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - Russt - 2008-09-23

Demo is a single-target skill with an ultimate-length animation, basically. I haven't actually seen Fist in action so I don't know what it's like.

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - JoeTang - 2008-09-23

Demolition stuns so you don't have to prestun for Criticals.

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - Takebacker - 2008-09-23

ahoboandahal Wrote:BoT is one of the fastest and best mob moves in the game.

I was talking damage, not speed. I know full well how fast BoT is, seeing as i had a CB.

It's not the best mob move in the game. We all know ultimates are. Other then that, there's ACB (you can't possibly beat 350% damage on 6 monsters with 90% change of uninterrupted stun). Major downside with BoT as an AoE move = you have to hit the monster to use it.

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - Dusk - 2008-09-23

JoeTang Wrote:Demolition stuns so you don't have to prestun for Criticals.

Does it really? It doesn't have a listed stun rate, so is it 100%? Would it never crit on the first hit on an unstunned monster or boss?

And there's more than ACB and ultimates that outclass BoT Faster (2) on 6 targets.

Inferno (282% per neutral target/Fast (4) or Faster (3) speed/slightly lower base damage)
Arrow Rain/Eruption (292% per target/Fast(4) or Faster (3) speed/slightly lower base damage)
Dragon Fury (500% per target with Berserk/wide range of possible speeds/much higher base damage)

Might be a few more I neglected to mention.

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - Takebacker - 2008-09-23

Demolition does not stun...

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - Russt - 2008-09-23

Dusk Wrote:Does it really? It doesn't have a listed stun rate, so is it 100%? Would it never crit on the first hit on an unstunned monster or boss?

And there's more than ACB and ultimates that outclass BoT Faster (2) on 6 targets.

Inferno (282% per neutral target/Fast (4) or Faster (3) speed/slightly lower base damage)
Arrow Rain/Eruption (292% per target/Fast(4) or Faster (3) speed/slightly lower base damage)
Dragon Fury (500% per target with Berserk/wide range of possible speeds/much higher base damage)

Might be a few more I neglected to mention.
Pretty much everything.
Avenger (345% per target/Faster (2) speed/much lower base damage)
.....Slash Blast + 10 orbs (247% per target/Faster (3) or Fast (4) speed/higher base damage)
Keep in mind Brandish far outclasses SB, and Avenger has a set range...

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - Takebacker - 2008-09-23

I wasn't really trying to list all the skills that outclass BoT. xD Just trying to show that it's not the best, yet perhaps stronger than dragon strike.

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - 0mgP1r4tes - 2008-09-23

JoeTang Wrote:Demolition stuns so you don't have to prestun for Criticals.
Demolition doesnt Stun, you need to use Snatch to stun during Super Transform

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - JoeTang - 2008-09-23

Takebacker Wrote:Major downside with BoT as an AoE move = you have to hit the monster to use it.
What the pineapple is that supposed to even mean? You have to hit a monster with any AoE to use it.

Dusk Wrote:Does it really? It doesn't have a listed stun rate, so is it 100%? Would it never crit on the first hit on an unstunned monster or boss?
Logically speaking, it would start Critical chances after the first hit connects, since the skill takes well over one second to complete and start again. It as a 100% rate with 1 second duration. You can't stun a boss.

Takebacker Wrote:Demolition does not stun...
Yes, it does.
0mgP1r4tes Wrote:Demolition doesnt Stun, you need to use Snatch to stun during Super Transform
Yes, it does.

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - Takebacker - 2008-09-23

JoeTang Wrote:What the pineapple is that supposed to even mean? You have to hit a monster with any AoE to use it.

Lightning, ice strike, arrow rain/eruption, blizz/meteo/genesis, and explosion (just to name a few...) don't require you to HIT a monster for the attack to execute. You can spam away at all of those without worrying about whether or not your hit landed. Either you misread what i said, or you don't know how BoT works.

JoeTang Wrote:Yes, it does.

No it doesn't...

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - Russt - 2008-09-24

A better way of explaining would probably be that BoT works like Inferno rather than having a set range like Thunderbolt. It swings your dagger and if the dagger hit makes contact, the hit area is centered around the "impact". If it doesn't make contact, BoT never happened.

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - Takebacker - 2008-09-24

Russt Wrote:A better way of explaining would probably be that BoT works like Inferno rather than having a set range like Thunderbolt. It swings your dagger and if the dagger hit makes contact, the hit area is centered around the "impact". If it doesn't make contact, BoT never happened.

Rather, you just lost MP.

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - JoeTang - 2008-09-24

To be honest, nowhere in that video does he ever hit a Skelegon that he hasn't already Snatched, so there is no proof there. It's supposed to stun, hence the 1 second duration and stun listed in the data.

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - Russt - 2008-09-24

So what's the point of Snatch there in the first place?

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - Takebacker - 2008-09-24

JoeTang Wrote:To be honest, nowhere in that video does he ever hit a Skelegon that he hasn't already Snatched, so there is no proof there. It's supposed to stun, hence the 1 second duration and stun listed in the data.

I wasn't entirely sure if that was the video i wanted or not. Regardless, it doesn't stun. Take dae's and my word on that. Either way, demo is so strong you tend to ohko everything anyway.

Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition - Fiel - 2008-09-24

The stun is listed in the data for demolition. I just didn't notice it to put it in the skill tables.