+- Southperry.net (https://www.southperry.net)
+-- Forum: Maplestory (https://www.southperry.net/forumdisplay.php?fid=15)
+--- Forum: Training Center (https://www.southperry.net/forumdisplay.php?fid=32)
+---- Forum: Warrior (https://www.southperry.net/forumdisplay.php?fid=46)
+---- Thread: ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build (/showthread.php?tid=33065)
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - JoeTang - 2010-11-23
Dusk Wrote:Slash Blast is fine to use, and I did put my first point into it, but I just didn't think it was worth maxing first. In the rare occasion that a mob of 3+ perfectly lined itself up for a Slash Blast, I wiped it out in about 3-4 hits even with level 1 Slash Blast and I had absolutely no funding and only level 2 Blessing on my Spearman. It was much more worthwhile getting my Power Strikes to 1-2hko than improving my Slash Blast damage, simply because I used Power Strike about 5x as much. I just don't understand why anyone would bother luring monsters across a map when the entire 20 second effort of luring only results in a mob that you can take out in about 2 seconds.
I never lured, but I just found that there was almost always two mobs close enough to warrant using Slash Blast over Power Strike. The Golem Mini-Dungeon is a great example of a Slash Blast training area.
And in the case of being funded, I think it's very realistic to easily reach the point where Slash Blast OHKOs.
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - Hanabira.Kage - 2010-11-23
Between Ground Smash and Slash Blast...I guess it's a matter of preference more than anything. If you're good at using Slash Blast, by all means do so. Of course, I think everyone should keep Slash Blast handy for high-spawn areas. 
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - Jamie_Kurosawa - 2010-11-23
Ground Smash feels like a skill that's like trying to merge PS and SB into a single attack. However, IMO, and from areas and places I've been, there are times when I've ran into mobs of 4 or more monsters at once, usually very strong monsters.
The plus of being a WK now is CB is now reduced to a true 3rd job skill, but problem is, unless you have a Charge to even use it (maxed preferred), and CB maxed as well for the best effects, you aren't getting much of a choice in the time frame you are building it from.
Plus Final Attack might actually not miss it's target. Most monsters I've seen that have an invincibility period, are few and far between, like Elder Wraiths and one of the Showa town goons. Most that I've seen can be attacked repeatedly and FA does work as intended at it's given effect activation.
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - Stereo - 2010-11-23
Jamie_Kurosawa Wrote:Ground Smash feels like a skill that's like trying to merge PS and SB into a single attack. However, IMO, and from areas and places I've been, there are times when I've ran into mobs of 4 or more monsters at once, usually very strong monsters.
Plus Final Attack might actually not miss it's target. Most monsters I've seen that have an invincibility period, are few and far between, like Elder Wraiths and one of the Showa town goons. Most that I've seen can be attacked repeatedly and FA does work as intended at it's given effect activation.
They changed every monster and a lot of maps, so prior experience really isn't useful. For one thing, you can't train on monsters above your level anymore, so there's an upper limit on how strong the monsters you attack will ever be. It's tough to judge damage on Tespia, but I think my Page was always doing 2hkos with Ground Smash vs. similar level mobs. You don't get into very strong monsters that take a lot of hits to KO until the 10x mobs - by which time you'll definitely have CB at a decent level.
And Final Attack was changed as well, pre-BB it will always hit the same monster as was originally attacked, post-BB it works as a separate attack with its own hitbox, and if nothing's in range it misses. It's actually possible to turn around between CB and FA firing off, if you time it right, and attack monsters on both sides.
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - JoeTang - 2010-11-23
Jamie_Kurosawa Wrote:Ground Smash feels like a skill that's like trying to merge PS and SB into a single attack. However, IMO, and from areas and places I've been, there are times when I've ran into mobs of 4 or more monsters at once, usually very strong monsters.
The plus of being a WK now is CB is now reduced to a true 3rd job skill, but problem is, unless you have a Charge to even use it (maxed preferred), and CB maxed as well for the best effects, you aren't getting much of a choice in the time frame you are building it from.
Plus Final Attack might actually not miss it's target. Most monsters I've seen that have an invincibility period, are few and far between, like Elder Wraiths and one of the Showa town goons. Most that I've seen can be attacked repeatedly and FA does work as intended at it's given effect activation.
Final Attack sucks. Slash Blast becomes even more useless at the higher levels because monster sizes get so big that it's impossible for them to clump up enough to hit more than 3 of them at any given time unless you have a rushing skill or waste the time trying to lure them.
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - Kevin645 - 2010-11-25
Would it not be better to use combat orders to bring all skills to max level ( 1st - 3rd jobs) if your already a Paladin? This way more SP for other skills that can be maxed
Was SB hit range reduced?
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - Stereo - 2010-11-25
Kevin645 Wrote:Was SB hit range reduced?
No, but Charged Blow was increased, and Ground Smash is obviously a new attack with good range.
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - Polantaris - 2010-11-26
JoeTang Wrote:Final Attack sucks. Slash Blast becomes even more useless at the higher levels because monster sizes get so big that it's impossible for them to clump up enough to hit more than 3 of them at any given time unless you have a rushing skill or waste the time trying to lure them.
A free 150% damage 50% of attacks is useless? What? You do realize that Post-BB, the delay caused by FA is completely removed in all its forms. It doesn't even have the animation anymore in most situations over every single class.
Slash Blast is not in the least useless. Most areas you train on, especially Post-BB, are clumped monsters. Drakes, Trojans, etc, are all in clumped masses on relatively small platforms. Yes, it's all preference, but meanwhile I do want to mention that after SB hits the first monster, it GAINS the range of Ground Smash -20. Ground Smash has a range of 200, and SB post first hit is 180. It's barely noticeable. Since most of the training areas are clumped monsters in large numbers, in the majority of situations the lower damage is easily made up for by the fact that you are hitting 6 monsters instead of 3. You might lose (I think) 80% damage per mob, equaling 240%, but meanwhile you recover over 700% because you hit 3 more monsters.
I've also noticed that in straight maps where you need more than 2 hits to kill, luring monsters is a beyond effective method. I trained significantly faster at 80+ on KMS by luring every monster in the Mossy Mushroom map in EF before killing them, waiting for the respawn, and redoing the process. I leveled about 25-35% faster than when I killed them as I encountered them. This does cost more HP, however it costs less MP, and saves you time in the end, believe it or not.
Once you get CB, this entire discussion is mute anyway, and I agree with this build in doing All 3 Charges to Level 6 then maxing CB. Why? Because if you WERE to fight Ice weak mobs, you have the increased damage boost from Ice + Lightning. I don't know really how many monsters are weak to Ice, Fire, and Lightning early on, however I do know that it never hurts to be prepared. Plus, if you're having issues with ranged attacks by enemies, Ice Charge is beyond helpful with this. You may sacrifice up to 10% damage, but meanwhile you also save yourself a ton of HP.
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - JoeTang - 2010-11-26
Polantaris Wrote:A free 150% damage 50% of attacks is useless? What? You do realize that Post-BB, the delay caused by FA is completely removed in all its forms. It doesn't even have the animation anymore in most situations over every single class.
Slash Blast is not in the least useless. Most areas you train on, especially Post-BB, are clumped monsters. Drakes, Trojans, etc, are all in clumped masses on relatively small platforms. Yes, it's all preference, but meanwhile I do want to mention that after SB hits the first monster, it GAINS the range of Ground Smash -20. Ground Smash has a range of 200, and SB post first hit is 180. It's barely noticeable. Since most of the training areas are clumped monsters in large numbers, in the majority of situations the lower damage is easily made up for by the fact that you are hitting 6 monsters instead of 3. You might lose (I think) 80% damage per mob, equaling 240%, but meanwhile you recover over 700% because you hit 3 more monsters.
I've also noticed that in straight maps where you need more than 2 hits to kill, luring monsters is a beyond effective method. I trained significantly faster at 80+ on KMS by luring every monster in the Mossy Mushroom map in EF before killing them, waiting for the respawn, and redoing the process. I leveled about 25-35% faster than when I killed them as I encountered them. This does cost more HP, however it costs less MP, and saves you time in the end, believe it or not.
Once you get CB, this entire discussion is mute anyway, and I agree with this build in doing All 3 Charges to Level 6 then maxing CB. Why? Because if you WERE to fight Ice weak mobs, you have the increased damage boost from Ice + Lightning. I don't know really how many monsters are weak to Ice, Fire, and Lightning early on, however I do know that it never hurts to be prepared. Plus, if you're having issues with ranged attacks by enemies, Ice Charge is beyond helpful with this. You may sacrifice up to 10% damage, but meanwhile you also save yourself a ton of HP.
Slash Blast's Final Attack does 100% on the first monster, 66% on the second, etc for Slash Blast. It's useless. Final Attack will never contribute to earning more exp because you will require the same number of hits to kill six monsters as you would to kill five monsters if FA killed one of them faster.
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - Polantaris - 2010-11-26
It still goes into other skills, like Blast, CB, etc. So meanwhile it might not be as wonderful for Slash Blast, fighting a boss with Blast may reduce a ton of attacks since it's an extended battle.
Also, I've had SB's FA help me out in plenty of situations with lower HP monsters, like CDs. My SB would do 1900-2700 or so, and if it ended with a FA, even 1900s would result in a dead monster, even extras that only got 60%.
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - Jamie_Kurosawa - 2010-11-26
Damage is damage... Plus, maxing Slash Blast during 1st Job has always been a vital warrior skill. There are times even during 1st job you need that skill maxed out and strong so you can train and hunt faster. It's one of the only few 1st job skills that actually can effective tackle mobs of monsters. Pre or Post BB, it's going to still be a staple skill for warriors during 1st job.
Nerfing a staple skill just to gain a small extra is never a wise move. Staple skills will still be staple skills even after Big Bang regardless of how you want to view it. Crippling a staple skill is never a good idea. 9 times out of 10, you end up dead a lot or restarting the character out of frustration. I've done that before out of recklessness and ignorance and learned my lesson carefully not to do it.
Consider this...
Slash Blast does 180% damage when maxed and add in Max Improved Fundamental for 70% extra for a total of 250% damage on up to 6 monsters. Toss in 150% extra damage from a Maxed Final Attack (when it activates), and more or less get a total combo attack of nearly 400% damage on at least 6 monsters with some possible degradation into the trail of damage, but still the damage adds up to a whopping 400% possible even it it takes multiple hits.
Ground Smash has only a rage of 200%, Slash Blast in theory and practice has the ability to hit farther out when used against a mob making it still more useful.
Plus you wont get Ground Smash till later anyway and by that time you'll need all your buffing 2nd job skills along with Iron Body.
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - Stereo - 2010-11-26
1st job is easy enough that players can (and do) get to level 30 without anything near an efficient build. Most classes can get to 30 in less time than a single level later on - so why not do a skill build with those later levels in mind?
Leaving Slashblast at 11 or 15 is not going to cripple your training anyway, any more than not having a 27 atk BWG and 20 Blessing of Sprite will prevent you from getting to level 30. It just takes a bit longer.
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - JoeTang - 2010-11-26
You can literally do 1 to 30 in under an hour post-Big Bang.
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - Secun - 2010-11-26
JoeTang Wrote:You can literally do 1 to 30 in under an hour post-Big Bang.
Are Pages still as hellish to train post-Big Bang?
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - Jamie_Kurosawa - 2010-11-26
Page's will still be hell to train by nature but remember you can use Threaten and use Warrior Potions together for added effects, and Joe even with the new formulas on EXP, the limitations of the new accuracy system will still make it where it won't that fast. Going from 1 to 30 will still take a good day or two at least depending on how much you can stand to play in a day's time as well as the availability of training spots which if Resistance is launched with Big Bang directly, will be severely limited.
Besides GMST isn't finalized yet and they could still make adjustments to anything, even the new curve. I saw a mock up of the supposed table on the msupdate Blog over at wordpress but even they stated the scale they used might not be entirely accurate nor finalized.
Plus think about this... how much time do you want to waste on half-built skills to maximize all the ones from 2nd job that are the most useful and then work on a skill that is easily replaced just a few levels into 3rd job? Ground Smash is simply a throw away skill for left over points. It's usefulness will be more or less useless and short lived.
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - Secun - 2010-11-26
I really don't see any "limitations" on the new Accuracy formula, and I don't see how GMST isn't finalized when it's already closed.
And Jubei, as much as you wish it otherwise, they won't be changing the Exp Curve, sorry. Why fix something that isn't broken?
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - Stereo - 2010-11-26
Jamie_Kurosawa Wrote:Ground Smash is simply a throw away skill for left over points. It's usefulness will be more or less useless and short lived.
No, that's definitely Slash Blast. It's completely replaced by Ground Smash as soon as you can (lv.35-41) and used until level 7x.
Believe me, once you try Ground Smash you'll never want to use Slash Blast again. It's decent on paper, absolutely useless in practice.
Anyone who's played a Dawn Warrior in GMS will be familiar with Soul Blade, which in 2nd job completely replaces Slash Blast. It's the same issue - you have a short ranged attack that hits more mobs for less damage, or a long ranged attack that hits fewer mobs for more damage - the longer range almost always comes out on top.
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - Jamie_Kurosawa - 2010-11-26
Well a Dawn Warrior does actually suffer from also a poorly implemented Final Attack as well which only speeds up the next strike you make in succession. Personally I've tried Soul Blade and it's not that great a skill. It's initialization and recovery times are far too long for effectiveness in a true all out fight.
Go up against a boss or a strong mob with it and you'd get trampled quick.
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - Polantaris - 2010-11-26
Stereo Wrote:No, that's definitely Slash Blast. It's completely replaced by Ground Smash as soon as you can (lv.35-41) and used until level 7x.
Believe me, once you try Ground Smash you'll never want to use Slash Blast again. It's decent on paper, absolutely useless in practice.
Anyone who's played a Dawn Warrior in GMS will be familiar with Soul Blade, which in 2nd job completely replaces Slash Blast. It's the same issue - you have a short ranged attack that hits more mobs for less damage, or a long ranged attack that hits fewer mobs for more damage - the longer range almost always comes out on top.
As someone who has made 2 Post-BB Pages now, one in KMS and another in JMS, I can say that I simply do not agree in the least.
Ground Smash is a decent skill, however in many situations I find myself taking unneeded damage simply because I'm fighting more than 3 monsters at once. As is the nature of Maplestory, it attacks the furthest way monsters first, leaving the closer ones to get even closer and cause damage. With Slash Blast, this is rarely an occurance.
Let's face it, you're a WARRIOR. You're going to be always close range. If you're complaining about the fact that you have to actually hit a monster before the extra range is in effect, you are the wrong class, and you should change before you waste more time into something you obviously are not going to like. Skills like Blast have a similarly short range, and abilities like Rush will throw you into the fray. You're GOING to be close to the enemy. Period.
Taking the range out of the equation, if you're training in proper locations, you will almost always have more than three enemies in your range at all times. Such is the nature of Warrior training. If your enemies are too far away, you're wasting time because you have to walk up to them. The best training for a Warrior is the training where the monsters are in your face always. If they are not, you make them in your face by gathering huge mobs. This is easily achieved with Rush, however you don't get that until 4th Job. Due to this, HUGE platforms are NOT your friend. The extra on swing range granted by Ground Smash is not something you should be concerned about. You should be concerned about how many monsters you can obliterate at once, because that's what you're going to be doing.
Areas like Ludibrium's lower clock area, with Clocks, and the guys that drop Cogs (Name escapes me at the moment), are NOT suitable for Warrior, regardless of how much range you have! You should be on smaller, compact areas, or large single platform areas like Mossy Mushrooms, B2, C3, etc, where you can get huge mobs to slaughter all at once.
I made a 72 WK in JMS long before any of these newer areas were available. I can tell you now that the best training I ever got back then was at Kappas in Jipangu (Before they became stupid with Himes). Why is this? Not because of the extra range of Ground Smash, a skill that didn't exist back then. No, I trained 10 levels, 60-70 in literally 10-15 hours simply because Kappas is a single, long platform in which I could gather the mobs and then kill them all at once. As inefficent as it sounds, it works. This is not nearly as fast when you're hitting half the mobs. Your range is not a factor in these situations. Plain and simple.
Of course, the entire idea of a build is simply a suggestion. When I read builds that other people have made in MMOs that I've never played before, I never follow them to the letter. Instead, I look at them and ask myself "Why did this person add into that skill?" It may seem useless to me until I think about it. "Oh hey, in most areas in Maplestory, the monsters are stacked in huge amounts. Maybe 6 hits a swing over 3 is better regardless of the slightly larger amount of damage." These types of things are what you should be asking yourself. You shouldn't be judging the guide as if you will follow it to the letter, no one does. Instead, you should think about why they are used, and contemplate maybe that your thinking could be incorrect, or at least the reasoning from the other player is indeed valid, even if it doesn't fit your play style. The point is to get you thinking, not to get you going "OH THAT'S USELESS BECAUSE IT DOES LESS DAMAGE." You're not being open minded, you have to contemplate why someone would indeed put into those points.
When I originally made my WK in JMS, it was a 1h Sword Warrior, even back then. People called me insane, stupid, etc. But when I explained my reasoning, people started to understand. Yes, you lose attack, but you also GAIN attack speed. PURE numbers are not necessarily better. If I can do 1,000 a hit, and hit 10 times in a second, while you do 1,500 a hit, and only hit 6 times in a second, I am doing more damage. It might not look it, but let's look at the math for a second. 10x1,000 = 10,000, while 6x1,500 = 9,000. I might do less damage, but the speed I gain from using a faster weapon actually causes me to outmatch you. I'm not trying to say anything specific here, because at this point it's pretty clear that Paladins are now meant to be the Shield class, however the point is this: You may think your thoughts are absolute, but when you open yourself up to new ideas and suggestions, you may realize that you are actually at fault, regardless of how much you "know".
ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build - Stereo - 2010-11-26
Polantaris Wrote:No, I trained 10 levels, 60-70 in literally 10-15 hours simply because Kappas is a single, long platform in which I could gather the mobs and then kill them all at once. As inefficent as it sounds, it works. This is not nearly as fast when you're hitting half the mobs. Your range is not a factor in these situations. Plain and simple.
I can't say I've ever shared that experience... I've heard that technique before, tried using it, and it's never been faster than killing what's in front of me. Which is only possible if you have a longer range attack, so you can hit stuff a couple times as you approach it. Otherwise you're slowed down by bumping into the mobs (which is the main complaint I have with trying to mob a map to one side - either you can jump over them, eg. Jr. Yetis, or you bump into every single mob you run past).
If you're 7x and not 1hkoing Kappas then you're a fair bit weaker than my WK was even back in 2006. And if you can 1hko then how do you mob them? Hitting once and killing is better than the faster attacks that take 2 hits to KO.
The main factor limiting where my warriors train has, historically, been acc - a 5x warrior, even one hitting 4-5k Powerstrikes, just can't hit Windraiders. Potential solved that temporarily, but BB is bringing it back - so I'll be in the situation where my attacks 1-2hko anything I can train on, and there's no way to mob.