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Cannon vs. demolition. - Printable Version

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Cannon vs. demolition. - Hazzy - 2008-08-28

Time Laps 30 comes from Horntail. :x Not exactly easy to get.

JoeTang Wrote:
 Spoiler
Someone said Demolition had the range of an Archer? LOL.

o_o
Whoa, what is that?
B>copy. xD (It's da smex)

Dusk Wrote:(Vipers have more hp than ranged classes but still significantly less than every warrior class).

Twenty levels less. That's what... 2k? Rolleyes

Cannon vs. demolition. - Eriko - 2008-08-28

More like 1k less hp.

Cannon vs. demolition. - Devil - 2008-08-28

Dusk Wrote:That's still completely unrealistic. It'd be pretty damn hard to organize a 6 Viper party in which everyone knew exactly when to cast what. A single person dying or d/cing would throw off the entire pattern. Not to mention you have no SE, no Bishop support ability, and no HB (Vipers have more hp than ranged classes but still significantly less than every warrior class).

Theoretically, a 6 Viper party would be very powerful. But in practice, it wouldn't fulfill your expectations and would probably end up significantly weaker than your standard DrK+BM+Bishop+3 NL party.
If a DK dies/disconnects in that party, the party is also history because BM's/NL's die in 1 hit at Horntail and friends... Wink. With Vipers that won't happen, they won't die then...

Also, don't forget that your party is a 4 attacker party (DK/BS just don't cut it in dmg at bosses), 6 Viper party's are 6 attackers, so they will do more dmg then 4 attacker partys...

But what I wanted to say is that you can see 6 Viper party's as 6 NL's party's with NL's that have warrior like HP (800 HP less then normal warriors), and godmode while throwing TT... If this was true for NL's or BM's, there would never be DK's in party's anymore, and just 2-3 Bishops for revive (btw don't forget Timeleap also resets revive, making multiple Bishops also unneeded...).

Quote:Also, I really don't think Demo has the range of an archer o_o It's probably equivalent to Boomerang Step range. I'm not even sure if Captain range matches archer range. We've had more range than any other class forever (yes, archers do have slightly more range than NLs), that would really suck.
Well I meant to the vertical range as well. For example, at Skelegons, Vipers can just snipe 1-hit kill skelegons while standing on a lower platform where they won't get hit. A NL/BM can't do this because it's vertical range is at least half of it. But you have to play one to understand what I mean...

Also, with the "range" I meant that they can hit any part of zakum/HT/etc without any difficulties as a short ranged character, because of their "large range" Smile

-----------

All in all, just see the Viper class as the Joker card in Maple. Virtually they can mimmic all cooldown party-skills every party member has, with giving every party member the ability to remove the cooldown on their skills:

Having 5 Vipers plus:
- One Bishop = 6x Revive
- One Shadower = 6x Smokescreen
- One Paladin = 6x Heavens Hammer
- One Marksman = 6x Snipe in a row
- Etc...

It's like having a party of 6 of the same class members in 1 party, while there is only 1 class that uses it's "Ultimate Skill", however now, He/She can use it 6x in a row...

Cannon vs. demolition. - Dusk - 2008-08-29

Hazzy Wrote:Twenty levels less. That's what... 2k?

Vipers don't gain the same amount of HP as warriors per level, and they don't have as many HP bonuses from 1st and 2nd job advancements. Keep in mind that Pirate base HP gain is the same as archers and thieves (as demonstrated by Captains having roughly the same amount of HP).

Their Improving Max HP increase also only adds 30 HP per point rather than 40 like warriors.

So they're gaining 20-24 HP per level until level 30, when they gradually move up to 50-54 HP. They don't get the HP bonus warriors gain, and 50-54 is quite a bit lower than 62-66.

I don't have exact numbers for the kind of HP Vipers will have, but I expect their survivability to be on the level, or slightly less than Shadowers. They'll need HB, or some HP washing to survive HT before end-game levels.

Edit: Pulled a random screenshot of a Buccaneer.
 Spoiler
Let's call it 3850 HP at 82. That's pretty high, a lot higher than my BM at 122. With a gain of 50-54 (avg 52) a level, they'll hit 8k hp at level 162. With some HP washing, that's probably 13x-14xish. It's roughly on the same level as Shadowers. My main point is, they definitely aren't as durable as some of you are making them out to be. They are not NLs with warrior HP. Heroes hit 8k HP around 120 with absolutely no washing (I think). It's well over a 2k HP difference by 16x.

And what's with the F3 at 2k HP? I only have 3.3k on my BM with 200 HP from equips. 2k is a lot.

Cannon vs. demolition. - Russt - 2008-09-04

6x Snipe isn't that useful. Its cooldown at max is only 10 seconds anyway, which means you already get 120 Snipes to 1 Time Leap (adding 5 Vipers would only make that 125), and if it's not anything less than 60 seconds, it's not much worth using in the first place.

Cannon vs. demolition. - KaidaTan - 2008-09-05

I was actually very interested in this topic because I was deciding which Pirate to be. Anyway, what I did was make my Bowmaster into an imaginary Pirate. I made her into a Gunslinger with nearly the same equips, an equally well-scrolled Gun, and Eternal Bullets. I made her into an Infighter with nearly the same equips (except I gave the items that could have STR, STR. Such as the cape), an equally well-scrolled fist, and with and without the +20 attack from Energy Charge. I put them both at level 163 (the level I was when I did the calcs), pretended the weapon they were wearing was level 100 but gave them enough of their secondary stat to equip their 110 weapon with level 19 MW, and pretended they had maxed all the skills necessary for these calculations.

Here's what I got. All the numbers you see are average damage and have both characters using a Warrior Elixer.

Captain (No Monster Defense) (Cannonball is calculated at 100 attacks a minute, Rapid Fire at 500 a minute)
54419 - Rapid Fire DPS
61222 - Rapid Fire DPS with maxed Advanced Homing
103398 - Battleship Cannon DPS
108840 - Battleship Cannon DPS with maxed Advanced Homing

Captain (2000 Monster Defense)
39753 - Rapid Fire DPS
44722 - Rapid Fire DPS with maxed Advanced Homing
75531 - Battleship Cannon DPS
79506 - Battleship Cannon DPS with maxed Advanced Homing

Viper (No Monster Defense) (I have no idea what the attack speed of Demolition is, so I put damage per Demolition)
148128 - Damage per Demolition
171648 - Damage per Demolition with charged energy

Viper (2000 Monster Defense)
112928 - Damage per Demolition
136448 - Damage per Demolition with charged energy

Oh for comparison, here's my Bowmaster's DPS at 163.
94716 - Hurricane DPS without Monster Defense
73156 - Hurricane DPS with 2000 Monster Defense

Please, please, someone find out the attack speed of Demolition in attacks/minute so that these calculations don't look so stupid.

Cannon vs. demolition. - Dusk - 2008-09-05

It's looking like Battleship outdamages Demolition if it can hit just twice per Demo. That sounds like a generous estimate for Battleship's speed.

Cannon vs. demolition. - Stereo - 2008-09-06

Devil Wrote:Having 5 Vipers plus:
- One Bishop = 6x Revive
- One Shadower = 6x Smokescreen
- One Paladin = 6x Heavens Hammer
- One Marksman = 6x Snipe in a row
- Etc...

It's like having a party of 6 of the same class members in 1 party, while there is only 1 class that uses it's "Ultimate Skill", however now, He/She can use it 6x in a row...

Why not optimise?

4 vipers + 2 bishops = 10x revive (per 20 minutes)
3 vipers + 3 bishops = 12x revive
2 vipers + 4 bishops = 12x revive
1 viper + 5 bishops = 10x revive

It seems like 2-3 vipers per party would make the most sense if you're just going for max spammability on cooldown skills. What it is would depend on actual availability of decent leveled characters (2 people with Time Leap maxed are easier to find than 3)

Cannon vs. demolition. - Takebacker - 2008-09-06

KaidaTan Wrote:I was actually very interested in this topic because I was deciding which Pirate to be. Anyway, what I did was make my Bowmaster into an imaginary Pirate. I made her into a Gunslinger with nearly the same equips, an equally well-scrolled Gun, and Eternal Bullets. I made her into an Infighter with nearly the same equips (except I gave the items that could have STR, STR. Such as the cape), an equally well-scrolled fist, and with and without the +20 attack from Energy Charge. I put them both at level 163 (the level I was when I did the calcs), pretended the weapon they were wearing was level 100 but gave them enough of their secondary stat to equip their 110 weapon with level 19 MW, and pretended they had maxed all the skills necessary for these calculations.

Here's what I got. All the numbers you see are average damage and have both characters using a Warrior Elixer.

Captain (No Monster Defense) (Cannonball is calculated at 100 attacks a minute, Rapid Fire at 500 a minute)
54419 - Rapid Fire DPS
61222 - Rapid Fire DPS with maxed Advanced Homing
103398 - Battleship Cannon DPS
108840 - Battleship Cannon DPS with maxed Advanced Homing

Captain (2000 Monster Defense)
39753 - Rapid Fire DPS
44722 - Rapid Fire DPS with maxed Advanced Homing
75531 - Battleship Cannon DPS
79506 - Battleship Cannon DPS with maxed Advanced Homing

Viper (No Monster Defense) (I have no idea what the attack speed of Demolition is, so I put damage per Demolition)
148128 - Damage per Demolition
171648 - Damage per Demolition with charged energy

Viper (2000 Monster Defense)
112928 - Damage per Demolition
136448 - Damage per Demolition with charged energy

Oh for comparison, here's my Bowmaster's DPS at 163.
94716 - Hurricane DPS without Monster Defense
73156 - Hurricane DPS with 2000 Monster Defense

Please, please, someone find out the attack speed of Demolition in attacks/minute so that these calculations don't look so stupid.

I would go with 1 demo = roughly 3 seconds.

Cannon vs. demolition. - KaidaTan - 2008-09-06

Takebacker Wrote:I would go with 1 demo = roughly 3 seconds.

That sounds really really slow. I don't think it's anywhere near that slow.

Cannon vs. demolition. - Takebacker - 2008-09-06

KaidaTan Wrote:That sounds really really slow. I don't think it's anywhere near that slow.

Eh, i got that number through just watching a video and timing it. Lol. Probably not as accurate as getting a viper and spamming demo for a minute, but close enough.

Cannon vs. demolition. - Arrg - 2008-09-14

Devil Wrote:I'll explain:
- Super Transform has a duration of 2 minutes, with a cooldown of 4 minutes, so for soloing it's like:
---> "2 mins super transform / 2 minutes normal = 10 out of every 20 minutes Super Transform"
- Timeleap (max) has a cooldown of 20 minutes

6-Viper party mode results in:
|01|02| |03|04| |05|06| .|07|08| |09|10| |11|12| .|13|14| |15|16| |17|18| .|19|20|
|ST-ST||TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |NORM| |ST-ST| |NORM|

16min SuperTransform & 4min Normal

5-Viper 1-Shadower party mode results in:
|01|02| .|03|04| |05|06| .|07|08| |09|10| |11|12| .|13|14| |15|16| |17|18| .|19|20|
|ST-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |NORM| |ST-ST| |NORM| .|NORM|
|SS|--| |SS|--| |SS|--| |SS|--| |SS|--| |SS|--| |-----| .|-----| .|-----| ..|-----|

14min SuperTransform & 6min normal + 6min Smokescreen

These are a cycles that can be repeated forever. And for Smokescreen, you can put-in any other skill with a cooldown that can be Timeleap-ed... Smile

When they need the first Timeleap again (minute 3 of the second cycle), the first Viper has cooldowned it's Timeleap because 20 minutes have passed since it was used in the first cycle... Smile

It wouldn't really be a good idea to use smokescreen, considering vipers are invulnerable to attacks during demolition's cast.

Cannon vs. demolition. - DeeD - 2008-09-15

I really don't see how 6+ revives are that helpful. I've never seen more than 2 revives in a zak run. I think timeleap is overrated. Fortunately the class it helps the most is its own class.

I'd really love to see a normal zak party stand up against the Viper party. I mean they have to max super transform, time leap, and demo, until they can boss? so lvl 150 vipers will be great at bossing? No MW either, since they don't need bishops.

Also @Devil: DK's are attackers too. Don't be mean.

Cannon vs. demolition. - 0mgP1r4tes - 2008-09-16

Arrg Wrote:It wouldn't really be a good idea to use smokescreen, considering vipers are invulnerable to attacks during demolition's cast.
They are invulnerable to physical attacks. Magic attacks can still affect them

Cannon vs. demolition. - NoWaizMatt - 2008-09-16

I highly doubt these are correct calculations, and I'm probably gonna be flamed.

In the vid of the captain at newties, it seemed about 3 canons for every demolition. The average damage I saw was about 6k a hit, 24k per blast, and 72k per demo. I watched an other video of a viper at Levi, a boss with higher def. The average damage (not knowing the level) was 13k, and 8 hits. 13kx8=104k. 104k damage - 72k damage in the same amoutn of time...

Cannon vs. demolition. - Takebacker - 2008-09-16

NoWaizMatt Wrote:I highly doubt these are correct calculations, and I'm probably gonna be flamed.

In the vid of the captain at newties, it seemed about 3 canons for every demolition. The average damage I saw was about 6k a hit, 24k per blast, and 72k per demo. I watched an other video of a viper at Levi, a boss with higher def. The average damage (not knowing the level) was 13k, and 8 hits. 13kx8=104k. 104k damage - 72k damage in the same amoutn of time...

Er, i saw 6-9k per cannon mostly leaning toward the median damage of 8k. Meaning 24-36k is the min/max for her cannon.

Also i don't think we know the level and equipment differences of those two...it was just to compare speed of their attacks not the damage differences.

Cannon vs. demolition. - Bribery - 2008-09-16

NoWaizMatt Wrote:I highly doubt these are correct calculations, and I'm probably gonna be flamed.

In the vid of the captain at newties, it seemed about 3 canons for every demolition. The average damage I saw was about 6k a hit, 24k per blast, and 72k per demo. I watched an other video of a viper at Levi, a boss with higher def. The average damage (not knowing the level) was 13k, and 8 hits. 13kx8=104k. 104k damage - 72k damage in the same amoutn of time...

Is this the video you're talking about? If so, her Cannon is only level 18.

This is a good demonstration of max Cannon. I believe he is 14x.

Cannon vs. demolition. - Takebacker - 2008-09-17

Bribery Wrote:Is this the video you're talking about? If so, her Cannon is only level 18.

This is a good demonstration of max Cannon. I believe he is 14x.

I still don't get why at the end he didn't use torpedo at the end. Does he not have it?

Cannon vs. demolition. - Bribery - 2008-09-17

Takebacker Wrote:I still don't get why at the end he didn't use torpedo at the end. Does he not have it?

His is level 1 I believe. He does use it once at some point in the video. My guess is that max Cannon outdamages level 1 Torpedo.

Cannon vs. demolition. - Takebacker - 2008-09-17

Bribery Wrote:His is level 1 I believe. He does use it once at some point in the video. My guess is that max Cannon outdamages level 1 Torpedo.

Well if you have a mob of 4, they're kinda even i guess.

Level 1 torpedo = 390%. (i think)
Max cannon = 380% per cannon.

I think they both fire at rougly same rate, so it's just a matter of what's more stable/uses less MP.