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The Inner Ability Thread - hadriel - 2013-03-21
I used that to give the greatest generic possible increase for a single-stage IAS. Since IA gives only a 1-stage increase in IAS, there's little need to consider anything else.
Hadriel
The Inner Ability Thread - Chilly - 2013-03-26
My brother ran through ~1500 Special Circulators to circulate over his Attack Speed Increase just to get it back to an Attack Speed Increase (and lose 2 INT, but gain negligible MP
). He SSed nearly all of the circulations for the IA Statistics thread and sent them my way. I was flabbergasted to go through them and see he'd gotten 17% Boss Damage but circulated over it. He sent me to back to this thread and pointed out [MENTION=5956]hadriel[/MENTION]; indicating a general 10% increase from ASI and told me about diminishing returns from 17% BD. To be clear, 17% BD is only less than a 10% increase when you have more than 170% BD, right? 187%/170% = 1.1X And anytime before that it will follow the same math? %BD Final/%BD Initial = Damage Multiplier
He doesn't have 170% BD, nowhere near it and I don't suspect that he will anytime soon, so I loled at him. He reasons that ASI "future-proofs" his character, given that burst damage is quickly becoming the norm with the example that he can hit Vellum 4-times with ASI v. 3-times without. Also, he suspects more and more "free" BD down the road, Fafnir weapons and Additional Options just being the initial salvo.
The Inner Ability Thread - Takebacker - 2013-03-26
Chilly Wrote:My brother ran through ~1500 Special Circulators to circulate over his Attack Speed Increase just to get it back to an Attack Speed Increase (and lose 2 INT, but gain negligible MP
To be clear, 17% BD is only less than a 10% increase when you have more than 170% BD, right? 187%/170% = 1.1X And anytime before that it will follow the same math? %BD Final/%BD Initial = Damage Multiplier
He doesn't have 170% BD, nowhere near it and I don't suspect that he will anytime soon, so I loled at him. He reasons that ASI "future-proofs" his character, given that burst damage is quickly becoming the norm with the example that he can hit Vellum 4-times with ASI v. 3-times without. Also, he suspects more and more "free" BD down the road, Fafnir weapons and Additional Options just being the initial salvo.
Once certain previously rare stats become more common the only logical route is to do the same for currently "rare" stats. Of course, there's only a limit to where you can get with nothing but direct damage modifiers, as you have pointed out. Vellum is the only boss where no current attack patterns yield a possibility of victory. At the very least some delay and speed adjustments to the cast from nexKR are what is going to happen, as they have demonstrated with the new cygnus. It's only natural that attack speed increase become more easily available. I'd be surprised if it wasn't made into a link skill, or at least give a new class a party skill that provides it.
Hurray for me either way. Cannoneers being a class that benefits from more of every stat under the sun (except critical rate), more sources of attack speed is amazing since i need +5 with booster to hit cap.
The Inner Ability Thread - hadriel - 2013-03-26
Also, the moment you hit speed cap with a party (e.g. in the future bosses need parties to kill them i.e. not meant to be solo-ed except for the likes of Limgoon), IAS is completely useless.
edit: for the record, 10% general increase in DPS is the maximum you can go, based on a standard attack speed reference, that's from Fastest(3) to Fastest(2). There is NO guarantee that changes in delays are in the same order, because of the way the game is coded; nonetheless I'm pretty certain that your damage does increase by an average of 10%, provided you're not capping attack speed yet.
edit: also, diminishing returns does depend on your current setup, but your calculations are indeed there. I would pick %BD over IAS if I'm a bosser.
Hadriel
The Inner Ability Thread - Takebacker - 2013-03-26
hadriel Wrote:edit: for the record, 10% general increase in DPS is the maximum you can go, based on a standard attack speed reference, that's from Fastest(3) to Fastest(2). There is NO guarantee that changes in delays are in the same order, because of the way the game is coded; nonetheless I'm pretty certain that your damage does increase by an average of 10%, provided you're not capping attack speed yet.
What do the % increases look like for other attack speeds? Say i am at (5), what's the increase for going to (4) or (3)?
The Inner Ability Thread - Curtiss - 2013-03-26
hadriel Wrote:Also, the moment you hit speed cap with a party (e.g. in the future bosses need parties to kill them i.e. not meant to be solo-ed except for the likes of Limgoon), IAS is completely useless.
edit: for the record, 10% general increase in DPS is the maximum you can go, based on a standard attack speed reference, that's from Fastest(3) to Fastest(2). There is NO guarantee that changes in delays are in the same order, because of the way the game is coded; nonetheless I'm pretty certain that your damage does increase by an average of 10%, provided you're not capping attack speed yet.
edit: also, diminishing returns does depend on your current setup, but your calculations are indeed there. I would pick %BD over IAS if I'm a bosser.
Hadriel
Though my speed is capped with Mille I thought it was fun reading your analysis of which one to pick. It gives me the inspiration to push forward and unlock my third line so I can finally post my IAs here.
The Inner Ability Thread - Stereo - 2013-03-26
It's definitely worth keeping in mind that %BD is also additive with other total damage skills. My Hero, as far as I know, has this:
3% Kanna card
2x3% S sets
10% boss Demon Slayer link
10% total Kanna link
40% boss damage weapon
--
15% boss + 12% total dojo glove (I only have this some weeks)
= 96%
As such, 17% bd would only bump that to 113% (8.7% more damage). And the first 29% is available to anyone who works for it. Some classes even have skills that add into this pool.
On the other hand, Raging Blow is 840ms @ normal 6, so 750ms @ booster, 690ms @ booster + IAS. That's also 8.7% more damage. (speed is (speed+10)/16*840ms rounded up)
Instead of either of those, I have +27 w.atk, which is approximately 6.75% damage. Oh well
The Inner Ability Thread - hadriel - 2013-03-26
Takebacker Wrote:What do the % increases look like for other attack speeds? Say i am at (5), what's the increase for going to (4) or (3)?
My reference is from LazyBui's thread: http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=3217&title=Attack%20Speed%20Reference. It is a very old thread, and the data may be outdated/obsolete/inaccurate, but there aren't any other ways for me to obtain strong numbers otherwise. JoeTang might be able to provide you more accurate numbers...?
A quick survey reveals that most attack speeds have a decrease in delay at the final stage between -30 to -60ms when the delays are in the range of 600ms, with the exception of most larger-delay skills ((old) assulter, Dragon roar, soul driver... that sort of >800-900ms delay skills). But even then, other than Final Attack which is the odd one, the decreases in delays from Faster(3) to Fastest(2) are virtually always more than or equal to the decreases in delay from Fast(4) to Faster(3) [so e.g. for Bow, Strafe(4) -> Strafe(3) is -60ms, and Strafe(3) -> Strafe(2) is -60ms too; also, for XBow, the same skill gives -30ms and -60ms respectively]. By virtue of the fact that this is in fact not diminishing returns but a decrease in the variable of an inverse function, this gives rise to accelerating returns.
Therefore; the greatest benefit derived from a single-stage IAS is from Faster(3) to Fastest(2), and in general I average that to be approximately (t/600) / (t/660) = 10% increase in raw DPS. using nice numbers for convenience. It is usually a little less than that (see below if interested).
[everything below is extra stuff if you only want to know where that 10% came from]
The problem always comes from the fact that most/all changes in delays go in 30ms steps (possibly to limit computational turnover [taxing!] to 2000 a minute and provide a more practical form of numerical resolution). So, to be fair, it is more accurate to say that due to rounding errors, the maximum average increase in DPS from a single-stage IAS is about or less than 10%, and that almost always comes from Faster(3) to Fastest(2). Since we're looking for an off-hand rule-of-thumb for changes in DPS, I would say that logically speaking, the average change from (4) to (3) would be in the order of (1/660) / (1/720) ~~ 9.1%, or based on rough correction it would be closer to 8-8.5%. And likewise for (5) to (4) (Angelic Busters?) it would be 8.3% before estimating corrections.
You must understand that IAS looks so desirable because it is (probably) the absolute final modifier that affects DPS, and it is not exactly cumulative. All other stuff we have suffer from diminishing returns, especially PDR after Unlimited, but not (necessarily) IAS.
Just to state the obvious, summons aren't affected by IAS, but Final Attack-type skills are (which we have always approximated to proc based on the rate that we attack; the delays for FA-type skills are no longer accurate because FA mechanics have changed since BB, and so the approximation is indeed the correct way to do calculations). If your char uses a Hurricane-type skill (Phantom, BM, Corsairs etc.) or if you're already at speed cap then obviously you should obviously not be going for IAS!
If you're an XBM, a +1allpassiveskill IA ain't so bad I think, if I didn't do my numbers wrongly; might be better than IAS in fact. Ditto for BaMs because of ADA (I think!) but prior to CO. For everything else, %Boss is your man, followed by a tie with %crit and %BD. Poorer (read: unfunded/poorly funded, in the likes of <30%stat before MW) people might actually want to consider solid +WA/MA but it's decent everywhere. If you just want to grind, +1target... depends... [anybody with a Lumi out there tried this with the relevant hyper skill?] But at any rate, a single stage IAS from inner ability is pretty decent to begin with.
Hadriel
The Inner Ability Thread - Takebacker - 2013-03-26
Nice. I'm still of the opinion that %ignore cooldown is a nice option to have because it's easier to roll relevant dice numbers and it procs on link skills and ultimates. No way to quantify what kind of damage increase that is though lol.
The Inner Ability Thread - Grey - 2013-03-26
Takebacker Wrote:No way to quantify what kind of damage increase that is though lol.
Why couldn't you? You can't model specific points in time, like the off chance you ignore cooldown 3 times in a row, but eventually it just averages out to -% cooldown, like how Defense Break and Typhoon Crush are pretty much Ignore 40% DEF, so long as you don't have other sources of % Ignore DEF. An x% chance to completely ignore a cooldown is practically the same as a 100% chance to ignore x% of a cooldown, no? From there, you just take the increases to the average effect of buffs and attacks with cooldowns, minus whatever % chance of Cooldown Ignore you have, and you have your average damage increase.
The Inner Ability Thread - Imagine - 2013-03-30
![[Image: 6lNsQb5.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/6lNsQb5.jpg)
Used my free circulator and ended up with this.
The Inner Ability Thread - Takebacker - 2013-03-31
iAmFear Wrote:Why couldn't you? You can't model specific points in time, like the off chance you ignore cooldown 3 times in a row, but eventually it just averages out to -% cooldown, like how Defense Break and Typhoon Crush are pretty much Ignore 40% DEF, so long as you don't have other sources of % Ignore DEF. An x% chance to completely ignore a cooldown is practically the same as a 100% chance to ignore x% of a cooldown, no? From there, you just take the increases to the average effect of buffs and attacks with cooldowns, minus whatever % chance of Cooldown Ignore you have, and you have your average damage increase.
It affects more than just things that affect damage though. Mikhail link for example makes a big difference to use twice or three times in a row. Same for ultimates like i said earlier. With high ignore cooldown you can kill whole spawns on some maps with just nautilus. Not at all a damage increase, but it adds more to a skill that is otherwise used for a one time wipe of the screen, and a ridiculously ineffective one at that. Also on a lesser note, not having to wait online for 2 hours after casting echo, although inevitable, is pretty sweet.
The Inner Ability Thread - valhala556 - 2013-03-31
That inner ability seems pretty sweet for a f/p or any mage really. Is there a rate were you think it'd be pretty useless to have, say less than 10% or so?
The Inner Ability Thread - Grey - 2013-03-31
Takebacker Wrote:It affects more than just things that affect damage though. Mikhail link for example makes a big difference to use twice or three times in a row. Same for ultimates like i said earlier. With high ignore cooldown you can kill whole spawns on some maps with just nautilus. Not at all a damage increase, but it adds more to a skill that is otherwise used for a one time wipe of the screen, and a ridiculously ineffective one at that.
But those are still things that can be modeled, stance is a bit tough but do-able, but the use of Ultimates can definitely be calculated as a damage increase.
Like, with ultimates and training, if you have 20% Ignore Cooldown, you can cast it 150 times in an hour vs 120, so assuming you one-hit and there's enough spawns, you'd kill 450 more monsters than you would otherwise, so you'd get up to 450 * whatever % more per hour. Or, you know, you can just take (Times Cast Per Minute (after Cooldown Reduce) * % Damage)/(Times Cast Per Minute (before Cooldown Reduce) * % Damage) to find out how much your damage would increase.
With bossing and stance, if you're one of those people who go around trying to calculate your damage, the math doesn't really consider you getting knocked around, so you're just getting closer to the theoretical number. Basically if you get an experimental value for your damage, then you can average it out with (Stance Time * Theoretical Damage + Non-Stance Time * Experimental Damage)/(Stance Time + Non-Stance Time), and you can apply the same -% Cooldown thing to get a rough estimate of your damage increase.
It's not as difficult as you make it seem. It's not some magical thing, just averages and numbers.
Takebacker Wrote:Also on a lesser note, not having to wait online for 2 hours after casting echo, although inevitable, is pretty sweet.
And this, well, I'm a Kaiser, so I can echo every 90 seconds if I please =P
Also I have like 6 other characters that can echo, so there's also that.
The Inner Ability Thread - valhala556 - 2013-03-31
Yeah it is calable but if you try to model it for a character than just a single skill then its going to be alot more difficult. and things like stance dont directly translate in to how much more damage you can do. So you cant really calculate the difference between 50% stance and 100% stance. well you probably can but there's a point of tediousness that it passes.
The Inner Ability Thread - Grey - 2013-03-31
valhala556 Wrote:Yeah it is calable but if you try to model it for a character than just a single skill then its going to be alot more difficult. and things like stance dont directly translate in to how much more damage you can do. So you cant really calculate the difference between 50% stance and 100% stance. well you probably can but there's a point of tediousness that it passes.
You can't really calculate anything, well, not exactly, anyway, and there's no stance skill that has less than 100% chance and has a cooldown, so it's not really applicable in this case, to compare 50% stance and 100% stance, I mean, but if you wanted to, well, it's pretty simple.
I would:
1. Take a boss with known HP and time how long it takes to kill it with 50% stance.
2. Find your damage per second or minute or whatever you'd like.
3. Calculate how much damage you should be able to do, theoretically, then convert that to a unit that's the same as the one in step 2.
4. Divide, and you have a rough approximation of how much your damage would go up if there was a way for you to jump from 50% stance to 100% stance.
It's a bit more complicated than this of course, since you have to factor in avoidability, guarding, dodging, variances in what the bosses do, like Pap's retreat, Irena's avoid buff, etc. But it should give you a rough estimation, and of course you can repeat to get a better average.
It's even more complicated if you increase your stance to a value that isn't 100%, but hey, that shouldn't really ever happen.
I don't think it comes anywhere close to being tedious, though I wouldn't want to do it, especially for the people who really want to know.
The Inner Ability Thread - hadriel - 2013-03-31
In short, it's more on utility than strict DPS increase. The latter is only truly valuable if (1) your DPS is dominated by or has a significant contribution from that attacking skill with a cooldown, and/or (2) your buff has a cooldown (e.g. DS's no-Fury-consumption skill, Roll of the Dice, BaM's Body Boost [nevermind Hypers for a while]) that (in)directly increases your DPS. I'd say that because it's so on-off random, I'd favour %BD increase over %ignoreCD.
Spamming Ultimates can be fun though.
Hadriel
The Inner Ability Thread - Takebacker - 2013-03-31
hadriel Wrote:I'd say that because it's so on-off random, I'd favour %BD increase over %ignoreCD.
Hadriel
I've had both and it really depends on the class and opinion but imo, all pirates benefit from ICD more than BD.
The Inner Ability Thread - valhala556 - 2013-03-31
Yeah it would bbe pretty fun to spam Eruption back to back. Oh well. I need to do awsan ALOT more before I even think about over circulating my +27 Magic attack.
The Inner Ability Thread - VerrKol - 2013-04-02
I decided to go ahead and recirculate since I'll be at 93% crit with the hyper update (98% with lvl2 links).
After ~350 special circs I got this.
19% boss, +11dex +6str, 5% acc to MP
I'm very happy with this. Someday I made horde them to get %bd + something good for 100% stance, but this seems great for a long time.