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+--- Thread: [1.2.381] The Wind (/showthread.php?tid=42033)
[1.2.381] The Wind - Takebacker - 2011-05-21
Angel ray got a really nice upgrade...it's range isn't as long as it should be, but it's still a nice upgrade.
Otherwise bishops aren't THAT bad to main.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Baklava - 2011-05-21
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:For one, bishops. :V
:V
:V :V :V
People complaining about Bishops not having top-tier damage is retarded, IMO.
GUYS I WANT MY BISHOP TO HAVE SUPPORT, TANK, AND SUPER DAMAGE ABILITIES, LOL.
If they made Bishops strong, people would complain that Arch Mages are still useless, and SP would be flooded with "Why Arch Mages still suck after the Jump patch" threads.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Takebacker - 2011-05-21
Having top tier is one thing, having better than what they have is another. With arcane aim it's probably easier for a bishop to out damage a bucc, for one thing.
But regardless of damage bishops will ALWAYS (ALWAYS) and FOREVER be desperately wanted in a party both for bossing and training, especially with party bonus.
[1.2.381] The Wind - 0^2 - 2011-05-21
Takebacker Wrote:But regardless of damage bishops will ALWAYS (ALWAYS) and FOREVER be desperately wanted in a party both for bossing and training, especially with party bonus.This is exactly why Bishops should be weaker than everyone else aside from on holy weak monsters. Incidently, are they better than some classes if facing holy weak mobs? If not then there is the problem.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Takebacker - 2011-05-21
Seeing a godly funded one hit 999k on (supposedly) neutral targets makes me think so.
[1.2.381] The Wind - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-05-21
Baklava Wrote:People complaining about Bishops not having top-tier damage is retarded, IMO.
GUYS I WANT MY BISHOP TO HAVE SUPPORT, TANK, AND SUPER DAMAGE ABILITIES, LOL.
If they made Bishops strong, people would complain that Arch Mages are still useless, and SP would be flooded with "Why Arch Mages still suck after the Jump patch" threads.
The majority of the QQ for bishops comes from not damage, but this:
It doesn't matter if the bishop in your party is a mule or a main. Bishops do mediocre damage to begin with so it's not like they get invited to parties for their damage. They get invited into parties because of their buffs. Though that said, does it matter if it's a mule or main buffing you? Nope. Using a bishop main for bossing/partying/training matters very little since all they do is buff. So unless the bishop main has god tier damage, chances are it won't be used for damage. And even if the bishop does have god tier damage, it probably still won't be used for damage. Bishops are used for support, and since support classes in MapleStory are unnecessary (and replacable to a degree) therein lies the problem.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Baklava - 2011-05-21
Takebacker Wrote:Having top tier is one thing, having better than what they have is another. With arcane aim it's probably easier for a bishop to out damage a bucc, for one thing.
But regardless of damage bishops will ALWAYS (ALWAYS) and FOREVER be desperately wanted in a party both for bossing and training, especially with party bonus.
Their damaging abilities aren't bad...really. Bishops are almost as strong as Paladins to be honest...and people used to complain that Paladins are OP.
Quote:The majority of the QQ for bishops comes from not damage, but this:
It doesn't matter if the bishop in your party is a mule or a main. Bishops do mediocre damage to begin with so it's not like they get invited to parties for their damage. They get invited into parties because of their buffs. Though that said, does it matter if it's a mule or main buffing you? Nope. Using a bishop main for bossing/partying/training matters very little since all they do is buff. So unless the bishop main has god tier damage, chances are it won't be used for damage. And even if the bishop does have god tier damage, it probably still won't be used for damage. Bishops are used for support, and since support classes in MapleStory are unnecessary (and replacable to a degree) therein lies the problem.
What, I main a Paladin and I'm out-damaged by every other class in the game except Bishops and the Pirates, and am reduced to being a Combat Orders mule for bosses/partying/training...but people say that Paladins should be weak because they have super tanking abilities.
Why is it different for Bishops?
[1.2.381] The Wind - Malthe - 2011-05-21
Baklava Wrote:Their damaging abilities aren't bad...really. Bishops are almost as strong as Paladins to be honest...and people used to complain that Paladins are OP.
What, I main a Paladin and I'm out-damaged by every other class in the game except Bishops and the Pirates, and am reduced to being a Combat Orders mule for bosses/partying/training...but people say that Paladins should be weak because they have super tanking abilities.
Why is it different for Bishops?
Since when were paladins weak? And since when were bishops stronger or even close to the DPS of paladins?
Can someone fill me in?
[1.2.381] The Wind - Takebacker - 2011-05-21
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:The majority of the QQ for bishops comes from not damage, but this:
It doesn't matter if the bishop in your party is a mule or a main. Bishops do mediocre damage to begin with so it's not like they get invited to parties for their damage. They get invited into parties because of their buffs. Though that said, does it matter if it's a mule or main buffing you? Nope. Using a bishop main for bossing/partying/training matters very little since all they do is buff. So unless the bishop main has god tier damage, chances are it won't be used for damage. And even if the bishop does have god tier damage, it probably still won't be used for damage. Bishops are used for support, and since support classes in MapleStory are unnecessary (and replacable to a degree) therein lies the problem.
If their damage is mediocre, then it won't matter if it's doing damage or not. Their damage being actually NOT THAT BAD AT ALL, the fact that maining a bishop and attacking as one contributes to the party remains. If you think you out damage the bishop in your party, then congratulations, you're probably getting more exp than him. Regardless, the bishop attacking makes monster park runs go faster, which is a benefit in itself for everybody.
In the one party where a bishop actively attacked (at castle golems), i got more %/h than any other instance of LHC ever. Leeching is never an advantage to you if you are the average or even above average player especially if you think constant HS is of benefit to you, rather than having to go over to where your mule is sitting. The REALLY above average player could (currently) get away with training with mules.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Baklava - 2011-05-21
Unleashing Wrote:Since when were paladins weak? And since when were bishops stronger or even close to the DPS of paladins?
Can someone fill me in?
A lot of classes were stronger than Paladins pre-jump and after jump, the other warriors and arch mages are stronger as well. They're pretty bad at 1v1 and are outclassed on mobs as well.
>_>
The only reason IMO that people think they're strong is when people use the UA Soul Driver skill, which will be nerfed very soon.
And I'm just going by the numbers I see in the extractions thread.
[1.2.381] The Wind - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-05-21
Baklava Wrote:What, I main a Paladin and I'm out-damaged by every other class in the game except Bishops and the Pirates, and am reduced to being a Combat Orders mule for bosses/partying/training...but people say that Paladins should be weak because they have super tanking abilities.
Why is it different for Bishops?
It's different for bishops because their effectiveness and contribution to the party remains the same despite the fact they're funded or unfunded. A paladin's contribution is different because they can effectively improve themselves through funding. A bishop with funding functions near the same as a bishop who's used as a mule.
Keep in mind I don't like this at all and think Advanced Bless should be reworked to factor in a percentage of the bishop's range or something.
Takebacker Wrote:In the one party where a bishop actively attacked (at castle golems), i got more %/h than any other instance of LHC ever. Leeching is never an advantage to you if you are the average or even above average player especially if you think constant HS is of benefit to you, rather than having to go over to where your mule is sitting. The REALLY above average player could (currently) get away with training with mules.
I trained at LHC with HS mules and with active bishops. Yes, active bishops make a difference, but not by that much. Maybe half a percent more an hour at 18x. This doesn't mean I favor mules over actives, but it means that their overall contribution outside of their buffs is sadly very little.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Takebacker - 2011-05-21
>Implying an unfunded bishop can do 2m per angel ray and doing said damage doesn't contribute nor out damage other characters.
Ok.
[1.2.381] The Wind - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-05-21
Takebacker Wrote:>Implying an unfunded bishop can do 2m per angel ray and doing said damage doesn't contribute nor out damage other characters.
Ok.
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:So unless the bishop main has god tier damage, chances are it won't be used for damage. And even if the bishop does have god tier damage, it probably still won't be used for damage.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Baklava - 2011-05-21
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:It's different for bishops because their effectiveness and contribution to the party remains the same despite the fact they're funded or unfunded. A paladin's contribution is different because they can effectively improve themselves through funding. A bishop with funding functions near the same as a bishop who's used as a mule.
Keep in mind I don't like this at all and think Advanced Bless should be reworked to factor in a percentage of the bishop's range or something.
A paladin improved by funding is still a combat orders mule in most scenarios, I don't understand what you're trying to get at.
[1.2.381] The Wind - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-05-21
Baklava Wrote:A paladin improved by funding is still a combat orders mule in most scenarios, I don't understand what you're trying to get at.
No they aren't. They're easily viable attackers. Especially post-jump.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Baklava - 2011-05-21
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:No they aren't. They're easily viable attackers. Especially post-jump.
...and so is just about every other super funded classes...bishops included. Bishop? Good party skills. Super funded bishop? Party skills and a nice damage output increase, what's not to like?
Post-jump Paladins are almost the same as pre-jump, with the only real damage differences being advanced charge going from 600% to 700%. The other two warriors and the arch mages got HUGE boosts to their total damage outputs propelling their viability past what they used to be.
I play KMS and parties invite me for Combat Orders alone (they scream it at me every 10 seconds, actually), just as players invite Bishops for their party buffs. :l
The reason people don't take Paladins as pure attackers is because a lot of their damage comes from elemental bonuses -- which a lot of bosses and higher leveled monsters don't give, and most of them resist elements, which make Paladins weaker.
I can do over 120k per Charge Blow on elementally weak mobs, barely over 50k on neutral monsters, and under 30k on resist monsters.
[1.2.381] The Wind - White - 2011-05-21
Baklava Wrote:A paladin improved by funding is still a combat orders mule in most scenarios, I don't understand what you're trying to get at.
That's not my experience with paladins. They are equally attackers as co mules. Maybe you haven't gotten to the highest tier of bossing yet? pb/cht.
[1.2.381] The Wind - ShanghaiDizzy - 2011-05-21
Baklava Wrote:...and so is just about every other super funded classes...bishops included. Bishop? Good party skills. Super funded bishop? Party skills and a nice damage output increase, what's not to like?
Post-jump Paladins are almost the same as pre-jump, with the only real damage differences being advanced charge going from 600% to 700% I play KMS and parties invite me for Combat Orders alone (they scream it at me every 10 seconds, actually), just as players invite Bishops for their party buffs. :l
Bishop damage doesn't increase nearly as much as other attacking classes. And even with increased damage, their attack speed remains on the low end (this is talking now versus post-jump where they attack faster).
And if your parties are like that post-jump in KMS, they're doing it wrong or you're doing it wrong then. Paladins always had respectable damage provided they fight elemental weak monsters.
[1.2.381] The Wind - Takebacker - 2011-05-21
I don't see how their power doesn't increase as much as other classes when the biggest factor in your damage (potential) is percentage based. Mages have one more potential source compared to a lot of other classes, too...(shields)
[1.2.381] The Wind - Baklava - 2011-05-21
ShanghaiDizzy Wrote:Bishop damage doesn't increase nearly as much as other attacking classes. And even with increased damage, their attack speed remains on the low end (this is talking now versus post-jump where they attack faster).
And if your parties are like that post-jump in KMS, they're doing it wrong or you're doing it wrong then. Paladins always had respectable damage provided they fight elemental weak monsters.
You forgot my quote. :<
...and bishops get spell booster after Jump...
Quote:The reason people don't take Paladins as pure attackers is because a lot of their damage comes from elemental bonuses -- which a lot of bosses and higher leveled monsters don't give, and most of them resist elements, which make Paladins weaker.
I can do over 120k per Charge Blow on elementally weak mobs, barely over 55k on neutral monsters, and under 30k on resist monsters.
When compared to other classes in-game, Paladins are not nearly as powerful as they are on paper, unless given the perfect scenarios.
But either way, I've grown bored discussing this so I'll just say this.
People still main Bishops on KMS, and while yes, people may use them as just replaceable mules, that doesn't mean that a good Bishop can't be a contributing factor to a party past buffs.