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+--- Thread: People being hacked since the last Server Check. (/showthread.php?tid=46631)
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - Muppy - 2011-09-10
Unleashing Wrote:Ofcourse it can, nobody forced you to agree with it. Lol.
It's stupid, i agree, but since you agreed to it that's pretty much the end of the discussion, this is why you should read ToS yourself before you sign up to something.
Just because someone agreed to it, it doesn't make the ToS legit. It's not like everyone reads all those pages of boring law and big words anyway.
If the ToS is abusive, I belive it's on grounds of being illegal, but I'm no expert on this subject so... yeah.
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - Rick - 2011-09-10
I know in my country, even if someone agrees to something, if it's not legal to ask them to agree to it it won't stand. It's probably the same in the US.
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - Eos - 2011-09-10
Muppy Wrote:Just because someone agreed to it, it doesn't make the ToS legit. It's not like everyone reads all those pages of boring law and big words anyway.
If the ToS is abusive, I belive it's on grounds of being illegal, but I'm no expert on this subject so... yeah.
Rick Wrote:I know in my country, even if someone agrees to something, if it's not legal to ask them to agree to it it won't stand. It's probably the same in the US.
#1 rule of contract law - To be binding a contract must be legal. (If you look carefully most contracts actually have an explicit clause stating that any unenforceable portions do not nullify the entire contract, only the unenforceable bits to prevent the important pieces from being negated by weasel clauses.)
You can put literally anything in a contract, but any portion of it that is not enforceable is just scare tactics. It's not illegal to put in unenforceable clauses, just unethical.
Liability waivers in particular are a joke put up to discourage people from trying. A prime example being "Not responsible for damage incurred in our parking lot" and "you break it, you buy it". Both are covered by the insurance of the business but rather than deal with the claims they just insist that it's your own fault unless you get litigious with them.
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - Rick - 2011-09-10
To clarify, I meant the clause itself is unenforceable. Not the entire contract. Let's see how my property manager takes it when I tell him he can't require me to get the carpets commercially cleaned. That'll teach you to be useless.
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - Flonne - 2011-09-10
Interesting, earlier my friend got his account hacked, but he lost nothing on his MS side, just from his Vindictus portion, and then only 1 character, the least funded...and they didn't even delete the mailings or reset the IP they accessed the account with. And they left all of his characters with 780 gold. Are they just pineappleing with us, at this point? lol
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - Sumwun22 - 2011-09-10
Unleashing Wrote:Ofcourse it can, nobody forced you to agree with it. Lol.
It's stupid, i agree, but since you agreed to it that's pretty much the end of the discussion, this is why you should read ToS yourself before you sign up to something.
You agree to pay $50 for this television set. If it is not paid in time, you will be charged 5% apy interest. yadda
yadda yadda bla bla bla.
Also, you are now my slave and must do everything I say for the rest of your life.
X______________________
Think this would hold up in a courtroom?
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - SwordStaker - 2011-09-10
Sumwun22 Wrote:You agree to pay $50 for this television set. If it is not paid in time, you will be charged 5% apy interest. yaddaYou signed it
yadda yadda bla bla bla.
Also, you are now my slave and must do everything I say for the rest of your life.
X______________________
Think this would hold up in a courtroom?
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - Sarah - 2011-09-10
SwordStaker Wrote:You signed it...
No.
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - Luxeraph - 2011-09-10
Sumwun22 Wrote:You agree to pay $50 for this television set. If it is not paid in time, you will be charged 5% apy interest. yadda
yadda yadda bla bla bla.
Also, you are now my slave and must do everything I say for the rest of your life.
X______________________
Think this would hold up in a courtroom?
I heard/read/saw somewhere that there was a company that put on their ToS that you gave them your soul or something similar to it, they ended up with a bunch of souls before anyone noticing it.
EDIT: Found it: http://www.gamepolitics.com/2010/04/16/price-ignoring-tos-details-your-soul
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - Sumwun22 - 2011-09-10
Luxeraph Wrote:I heard/read/saw somewhere that there was a company that put on their ToS that you gave them your soul or something similar to it, they ended up with a bunch of souls before anyone noticing it.
EDIT: Found it: http://www.gamepolitics.com/2010/04/16/price-ignoring-tos-details-your-soul
lol. They actually made a south park episode about the whole online contract issue too. I think it's the human centipad one.
But contracts are null and void(or at least partially) if found to be unreasonable by a jury. Someone could sue nexon and win if they had a decent lawyer and if it involved a sizeable amount of money. They have somewhere in their ToS that all nx "purchased" is considered a donation and anything "bought" is rewarded in exchange for said donation. Obviously, this is 100% bs and no court anywhere would consider such a transaction an exchange of gifts. These are purchases and therefore subject to trade laws.
TL;DR : Nexon's ToS is ridiculous and unreasonable. Legally, ridiculous and unreasonable contracts can be fought against and made null.
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - SwordStaker - 2011-09-10
Sarah Wrote:...Yes. learn to read the fine print.
No.
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - Sarah - 2011-09-10
SwordStaker Wrote:Yes. learn to read the fine print.Learn law. You can't enforce a clause that is beyond reason even if the person has agreed to it.
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - SwordStaker - 2011-09-10
Sarah Wrote:Learn law. You can't enforce a clause that is beyond reason even if the person has agreed to it.You can challenge it but you still signed it. I see nothing in NEXON's ToS that's unreasonable. You get hacked oh well. You don't pay them anything why should they give a crap what happens to you? NX isn't a forced buy its a choice.
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - Sumwun22 - 2011-09-10
SwordStaker Wrote:You can challenge it but you still signed it. I see nothing in NEXON's ToS that's unreasonable. You get hacked oh well. You don't pay them anything why should they give a crap what happens to you? NX isn't a forced buy its a choice.
The law doesn't allow a contract to break any law or to be "unreasonable" as determined by a jury or judge. Signing something doesn't necessarily bind you to it if it's illegal or totally ridiculous.
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - SwordStaker - 2011-09-10
Sumwun22 Wrote:The law doesn't allow a contract to break any law or to be "unreasonable" as determined by a jury or judge. Signing something doesn't necessarily bind you to it if it's illegal or totally ridiculous.Where did I say you were bound to it? If you sign something don't be surprised if someone shows up demanding something because you didn't read the fine print. You can always challenge it. But the point is you still didn't read the fine print.
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - Sumwun22 - 2011-09-10
SwordStaker Wrote:Where did I say you were bound to it? If you sign something don't be surprised if someone shows up demanding something because you didn't read the fine print. You can always challenge it. But the point is you still didn't read the fine print.
No dude. If it's illegal, you're not bound to it at all. If it's ridiculous, then it can be challenged. As in, you can choose not to follow the contract until either you or he challenges the other in court while incurring no penalty. So, in essence, you wouldn't be bound to it even then.
And reading fine print is irrelevant if the contract is written in such a way that is unfair or unreasonable. It's just as much one's responsibility to read a contract they sign as it is for someone to write a contract that wouldn't be nullified in court.
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - Eos - 2011-09-10
SwordStaker Wrote:You can challenge it but you still signed it. I see nothing in NEXON's ToS that's unreasonable.
"Unreasonable" to a jury or judge is very different from "unreasonable" to a company that wants to be paid for nothing.
The client/service relationship has several implicit expectations from the public that can not be waived just because a business doesn't want to have to deal with them. It doesn't matter if purchase of NX is compulsory or not; Once it's purchased the issuing organization has a responsibility that's been purchased with the money they've been handed and no amount of legalese will free them from it any more than a bank can say "your deposit wasn't a purchase of anything so if someone else comes along and takes it from your account without your permission because we didn't stop them we don't owe you anything".
Sumwun22 Wrote:And reading fine print is irrelevant if the contract is written in such a way that is unfair or unreasonable. It's just as much one's responsibility to read a contract they sign as it is for someone to write a contract that wouldn't be nullified in court.
Particularly since the only way a company could enforce the terms in a contract is by taking you to said court in the first place, meaning if it's not enforceable and they can't scare you into doing it they'd have to pay to go to court to try to enforce the terms that would likely be nullified anyhow.
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - SwordStaker - 2011-09-10
Eos Wrote:"Unreasonable" to a jury or judge is very different from "unreasonable" to a company that wants to be paid for nothing.Well I wasn't exactly saying that. Thing is you're not forced to buy NX, and if NEXON did steal people's money and not give them anything in return that's one thing.
The client/service relationship has several implicit expectations from the public that can not be waived just because a business doesn't want to have to deal with them. It doesn't matter if purchase of NX is compulsory or not; Once it's purchased the issuing organization has a responsibility that's been purchased with the money they've been handed and no amount of legalese will free them from it any more than a bank can say "your deposit wasn't a purchase of anything so if someone else comes along and takes it from your account without your permission because we didn't stop them we don't owe you anything".
On the terms of being hacked regardless of what happens at the company, in the end would be viewed as your fault break in or not, and on top of that NEXON can choose to close your account anytime they want and you can't argue that.
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - Kalovale - 2011-09-10
Sumwun22 Wrote:They have somewhere in their ToS that all nx "purchased" is considered a donation and anything "bought" is rewarded in exchange for said donation. Obviously, this is 100% bs and no court anywhere would consider such a transaction an exchange of gifts. These are purchases and therefore subject to trade laws.
I'd like to see Nexon say that to the IRS.
People being hacked since the last Server Check. - Mibs - 2011-09-10
SwordStaker Wrote:On the terms of being hacked regardless of what happens at the company, in the end would be viewed as your fault break in or not, and on top of that NEXON can choose to close your account anytime they want and you can't argue that.
Didn't a whole string of people just go through this "reasonable" and "unreasonable" thing with you?