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+--- Thread: JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th (/showthread.php?tid=41837)
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - Link - 2011-05-17
Takebacker Wrote:It would actually be more OP that way. You can rebirth at any level over 120. Which means a rebirthed character who has leveled a combined total of 320 times (120 into level 200) will always be inferior to a character who has leveled 321~400 times.
To the japanese natives, NX is probably really easy to get. Rebirthing once grants more power than 100 miracle cubes, so it doesn't make sense for a japanese native to not rebirth unless they don't care. If they don't care they don't have much reason to complain either.
Uh... What?
-You lose all of your AP when you rebirth.
-You only keep your HP, MP and Skill Set (which is limited in use if you choose a class that doesn't use the same weapon).
That means the only bit stronger you are is more HP/MP and an alternative, yet limited, skill set (which, again, will be weaker, depending on your chosen class).
Side note : 2 more levels until Dark Knight~!
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - Haseo - 2011-05-17
Wouldn't the ideal character then involve dumping loads of ap into hp/mp (whichever stat increase skill you have), then rebirthing at 200?
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - Takebacker - 2011-05-17
ShiKage Wrote:Uh... What?
-You lose all of your AP when you rebirth.
-You only keep your HP, MP and Skill Set (which is limited in use if you choose a class that doesn't use the same weapon).
That means the only bit stronger you are is more HP/MP and an alternative, yet limited, skill set (which, again, will be weaker, depending on your chosen class).
Side note : 2 more levels until Dark Knight~!
The more SP/levels you have the better off you are, therefore the more you level the better off you will be after rebirth.
A 320 pallahero will be weaker than a 350, which will be weaker than a 400. Not keeping AP doesn't have anything to do with it.
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - Link - 2011-05-17
Takebacker Wrote:The more SP you have the better off you are, therefore the more you level the better off you will be after rebirth.
A 320 pallahero will be weaker than a 350, which will be weaker than a 400. Not keeping AP doesn't have anything to do with it.
That's still not super omgwtp 100x stronger than the potential system. A second, limited skill set (in most cases), won't be as over powering as having 500%+ primary stat, 60% bossing damage, ignore defense 50%, etc. etc.
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - Takebacker - 2011-05-17
Advanced combo alone is 4x the damage an average player would get. Advanced combo+SP is almost equal to a full unique set of significant stats. It's worse than what potential system did, not equal to. Potential nullify exists, but rebirth nullify doesn't.
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - KhainiWest - 2011-05-17
So as a drk I can use SI? FUUUUU
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - Link - 2011-05-17
Takebacker Wrote:Advanced combo alone is 4x the damage an average player would get. Advanced combo+SP is almost equal to a full unique set of significant stats. It's worse than what potential system did, not equal to. Potential nullify exists, but rebirth nullify doesn't.
2x, not 4x.
Where are you getting these numbers? >_>
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - Takebacker - 2011-05-17
ShiKage Wrote:2x, not 4x.
Where are you getting these numbers? >_>
Average players get like 25% main stat at most. Advanced combo is 2x damage. 25%*4=100%.
Adv combo+SP is 150% damage. Which you need full unique equipments to get.
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - Haseo - 2011-05-17
KhainiWest Wrote:So as a drk I can use SI? FUUUUU
I don't think SI provides as much of a damage jump as shadow partner or ACA. You'd probably be better off taking either of those and looking for a PSB.
But then, I suppose it'd be spiffy to be fast with one of those perfectly scrolled chelbirds, ehh..
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - yo72 - 2011-05-17
So ACA would be good for physical classes such as db/shad, for ranged wouldn't infinity/the skill to do 40% more dmg on 1 target be better?
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - Link - 2011-05-17
Takebacker Wrote:Average players get like 25% main stat at most. Advanced combo is 2x damage. 25%*4=100%.
Adv combo+SP is 150% damage. Which you need full unique equipments to get.
Er. I don't understand the first thing you said.
Second :
Shadower / Night Lord to Hero : 150% damage boost on the Hero. Yay, a whole 150% damage. That's THE WORST THING POSSIBLE.
Hero to Shadower/Night Lord : 200% Damage boost. Okay, that's kind of high, but comparing that alone to potential alone, I think potential is more broken.
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - Takebacker - 2011-05-17
ShiKage Wrote:Er. I don't understand the first thing you said.
Second :
Shadower / Night Lord to Hero : 150% damage boost on the Hero. Yay, a whole 150% damage. That's THE WORST THING POSSIBLE.
Hero to Shadower/Night Lord : 200% Damage boost. Okay, that's kind of high, but comparing that alone to potential alone, I think potential is more broken.
Advanced combo is equal to four times the main stat the average characters usually get from the potential system, therefore proving that the rebirth system is more broken than potential in terms of power:cost ratio. If you factor in the advantages that the rest of the skill set has, it's even more broken.
Second part: Errrrrr, typo on my part. I meant to say adv combo+SP is equivalent to 150% main stat from potential. (2.5x damage) The former costs $10. The latter costs hundreds of USD in cubes and requires even more luck.
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - MetaSeraphim - 2011-05-17
Arrol Wrote:Five job? You can use all 5 job skills? Or just collecting a set of skills.
You can use a skill from each of the five main jobs, yes. But you can't use 5 different set of skills. Just two.
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - Viaje - 2011-05-17
Takebacker Wrote:The more SP/levels you have the better off you are, therefore the more you level the better off you will be after rebirth.Um... what?
A 320 pallahero will be weaker than a 350, which will be weaker than a 400. Not keeping AP doesn't have anything to do with it.
As I understand, rebirthing doesn't reset your SP, just keeps the skills you had in tact.
And you may want to specify how many levels were theoretically advanced in each job since "320 pallahero" is fairly non-descript.
Takebacker Wrote:It would actually be more OP that way. You can rebirth at any level over 120. Which means a rebirthed character who has leveled a combined total of 320 times (120 into level 200) will always be inferior to a character who has leveled 321~400 times.Except not. How exactly do you figure that forcing people to slowly level all the way to 200, which is definitely limiting the pool who will be able to use this system, making it more OP then letting people advance at any time.
See, a lot of people aren't thinking this all the way through.
Ask yourself two questions:
1 - How many classes have 243 SP worth of useful skills in 4th Job?
2 - Ignoring all the "kicks and giggles" combinations, how many skills are made redundant by one from the other class?
For example, let's take a look at a Paladin/Hero combo (which I assert is the best, in either order, but I'll get to that later).
Paladin:
- Achilles (30)
- Guardian (30)
- Advanced Charge (10)
- Divine Shield (10)
- Maple Warrior (30)
- Power Stance (30)
- Divine Charge (20)
- Rush (30)
- Blast (30)
- Heaven's Hammer (30)
- Hero's Will (5)
255 theoretical SP.
Hero:
- Advanced Combo Attack (30)
- Achilles (30)
- Combat Mastery (10)
- Maple Warrior (30)
- Monster Magnet (30)
- Power Stance (30)
- Rush (30)
- Intrepid Slash (30)
- Enrage (30)
- Hero's Will (5)
255 theoretical SP.
So that's 510 (or 170 levels) of theoretical SP.
To start, you can get rid of those redundant skills; Achilles (30), Stance (30), Rush (30), Maple Warrior (30), and Hero's Will (5). That's 125 SP (or 41 2/3 levels) you just saved on either 'birth'.
This isn't even counting the fact that there's no reason to put more than 1 SP in Rush or Monster Magnet (saving another 58 SP or 19 1/3 levels).
So, basically, you could get a Paladin to 164 with Guardian (30), Advanced Charge (10), Divine Shield (10), Divine Charge (20), Blast (30), Hammer (30), 1 Rush, and 1 leftover point to throw on the floor.
You could then immediately roll over to a Hero, and nothing of value will be lost.
This way you avoid having to twice endure the point where leveling becomes an atrocious waste of time.
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - Arrol - 2011-05-17
MetaSeraphim Wrote:You can use a skill from each of the five main jobs, yes. But you can't use 5 different set of skills. Just two.
Oh, can I have an example?
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - MetaSeraphim - 2011-05-17
Arrol Wrote:Oh, can I have an example?
You're a Shadower and you rebirth into a Hero. You get to use the full skill set from the Shadower and the Hero. On the new skill window thingy you'll see the Shadower skills under Thief, and the Hero skills under Warrior.
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - yo72 - 2011-05-17
Can sum1 test if CO works on past job skills also
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - Takebacker - 2011-05-17
Jesus christ. What's so hard to get?
Viaje Wrote:As I understand, rebirthing doesn't reset your SP, just keeps the skills you had in tact.
And you may want to specify how many levels were theoretically advanced in each job since "320 pallahero" is fairly non-descript.
Duh. The more SP you have ALLOCATED IN YOUR SKILLS WHEN YOU REBIRTH. I never said anything about SP being reset. (though wouldn't that be interesting when you use an SP reset scroll and you lose SP)
120 paladin into 200 hero. How about suggesting something better?
Viaje Wrote:Except not. How exactly do you figure that forcing people to slowly level all the way to 200, which is definitely limiting the pool who will be able to use this system, making it more OP then letting people advance at any time.
QUICK WRITE A LONG ASS RESPONSE TO PROVE HIM WRONG.
Limiting it to level 200 makes the strong stronger and the weak weaker. Rebirthed characters would ALWAYS in EVERY SITUATION be superior. If it's 120+, then the level of the original character will be more of a limit to your power than anything else so they could still be weaker than some non-rebirthed person. If you are 200, there is no limits except for the fact that 200 is hard as hell to reach to begin with.
Viaje Wrote:See, a lot of people aren't thinking this all the way through.
Ask yourself two questions:
1 - How many classes have 243 SP worth of useful skills in 4th Job?
2 - Ignoring all the "kicks and giggles" combinations, how many skills are made redundant by one from the other class?
For example, let's take a look at a Paladin/Hero combo (which I assert is the best, in either order, but I'll get to that later).
Paladin:
- Achilles (30)
- Guardian (30)
- Advanced Charge (10)
- Divine Shield (10)
- Maple Warrior (30)
- Power Stance (30)
- Divine Charge (20)
- Rush (30)
- Blast (30)
- Heaven's Hammer (30)
- Hero's Will (5)
255 theoretical SP.
Hero:
- Advanced Combo Attack (30)
- Achilles (30)
- Combat Mastery (10)
- Maple Warrior (30)
- Monster Magnet (30)
- Power Stance (30)
- Rush (30)
- Intrepid Slash (30)
- Enrage (30)
- Hero's Will (5)
255 theoretical SP.
So that's 510 (or 170 levels) of theoretical SP.
To start, you can get rid of those redundant skills; Achilles (30), Stance (30), Rush (30), Maple Warrior (30), and Hero's Will (5). That's 125 SP (or 41 2/3 levels) you just saved on either 'birth'.
This isn't even counting the fact that there's no reason to put more than 1 SP in Rush or Monster Magnet (saving another 58 SP or 19 1/3 levels).
1) Order completely matters. If you start with paladin and put 0 in achilles because the hero will have it anyway, then jump will come around and you'll have adv final attack but no achilles.
2) Maxing those skills in the previous advancement means you have them at level 1. Making you stronger than someone who was lower leveled and you won't have to get those skills when you reach the same level you used to be.
The higher you are before you rebirth means you will ALWAYS (ALWAYS) be better off.
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - Arrol - 2011-05-17
MetaSeraphim Wrote:You're a Shadower and you rebirth into a Hero. You get to use the full skill set from the Shadower and the Hero. On the new skill window thingy you'll see the Shadower skills under Thief, and the Hero skills under Warrior.
Ah alright then
JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th - Worthyness - 2011-05-17
So if you wanted to get the max benefit from rebirthing, you'd want to be level 200. But if you wanted to rebirth faster, then you can raise your first character to have the main important skills for your class (e.g. bishop to 160 ish for max adv bless, infinity, res, etc.) and then rebirth into your new class for a "faster" adventure.
Warrior tree inter-merging seems to be the most beneficial. But you could also do melee adventurer into hero or vice versa to take the advantages of the op hero skills. Charged ACB pali or a charged intrepid slash hero would be amazingly OP. Godly survivability + godly DPS + ridiculously high HP and moderately high MP? oOoo boy. KSing just reached a whole 'nother level.