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+--- Thread: [1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben (/showthread.php?tid=26918)
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - Phoenix - 2010-06-24
JoeTang Wrote:Where's this 720ms come from? I haven't read most of the thread after I saw four pages were basil-like people trolling and whining, was it posted earlier?
Yeah. Fiel had it near the begining responding to someone's request.
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - LegendGospel - 2010-06-24
People need to stop letting their greed and hatred drive their discussions for game balancing.
Nightlords are pretty pineappleing strong, and now they're able to train too, good for them!
Shadowers are also pretty pineappleing strong now. They finally got SHADOW Partner too, lol. Makes sense, I'm happy for them. There was a guy complaining about range just because he can't hit Zakum's top right arm. Yeah, that's quite annoying. Barrage can't hit it, but Demolition can. But Assassinate is still a hell of a killer. I guess something could be done. Not like it matters much unless you're soloing the arms. When I had no Demolition I just Barraged the arms I could hit. Why are Shadowers complaining about anything, really? Assassinate is awesome.
Love the Bucc love. Finally transformation does what it's supposed to do. It only took this long, lol. This is enough to make them a respected class.
LOLadins were fixed time ago, with a good party skill and good damage, now they are almost invincible, the true meatshields of this game. Sweet.
For me, these jobs are 95% set. Now... introducing you the new loljob...
LOLMAGICIANS!!
1) Ultimates reduced, sorry guys! You'll have to rely on your semi-decent mobbing skills, oops, except you Bishops!
2) F/P guys can't boss, sorry!
3) I/L guys got a better bossing skill, but it still SUCKS compared to melee jobs, sorry!
4) Bishops bossing? Doesn't matter that much, we heal and dispel and so =) but oh wait... good luck training!
5) Thieves complain about sharing a few branch side-skills? Well, all 3 magicians main training skill is Big Bang, lol. Byebye uniqueness.
LF> Magician balancing.
A really simple way to fix magicians is: their main 4th job unique main skill hit hard on single targets, and hit on multiple mobs with reduced damage.
On single targets: Multihits for CL, big damage increase for Paralyze, slight damage increase for Angel Ray. I win the Internetz.
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - Zacairga - 2010-06-24
Shengz Wrote:Shadowers can bstep right after taunt and be 1 hitting guards. Avenger is a pure shyt skill, slow, and the venom that it will give off after +40% defence is added on will be pathetic as well. Also your bsing, killing faster than any other class? avenger? 180% skill? man you funny.
I see. Guess tuant sucks as a NL skill then. And I wasn't saying they were solely using Avenger. TT and avenger used in nice unison can kill quite quickly. The faster than any other class was obviously an exageration.
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - vx-2 - 2010-06-24
Alloy Wrote:There's something bugging me though...
Why do Shadowers have 10 skills on their 3rd job, and Night Lords have only 8? Maybe they'll tweak them a bit more, there, like an extra skill for NLs or two... Not sure, though.
Anyways, NLs DO seem like nothing at the moment... But not damage wise, no... There's something off... I can't put my finger on it, but there's something way off... Maybe it's the lack of exclusivity of flash jump, but I feel NLs are getting... dull with this patch, somehow. Or maybe an overbuffed avenger. Don't know exactly where.
Well, it could be that, they will add a 2nd shadow partner for NLs? means they'll have two shadow partners instead. Quick solution to all whinning NLs. ^^
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - Phoenix - 2010-06-24
LegendGospel Wrote:For me, these jobs are 95% set. Now... introducing you the new loljob...
LOLMAGICIANS!!
1) Ultimates reduced, sorry guys! You'll have to rely on your semi-decent mobbing skills, oops, except you Bishops!
2) F/P guys can't boss, sorry!
3) I/L guys got a better bossing skill, but it still SUCKS compared to melee jobs, sorry!
4) Bishops bossing? Doesn't matter that much, we heal and dispel and so =) but oh wait... good luck training! Might as well spam Magic Claw.
5) Thieves complain about sharing a few branch skills? Well, all 3 magicians best training skill is Big Bang, lol. Byebye uniqueness.
I don't really agree with that. 700% is pretty powerful, and if the new magic dmg formula gives mages similar ranges to non magic jobs then it's satisfactory isn't it?
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - vx-2 - 2010-06-24
jhkplaya888 Wrote:This patch basically gives us SE dmg without SE with a bit extra attack, but nothing like other buffs. Our SE dmg makes us second best DPS in current game. Since they buffed the pomegranate out of everyone else. We are now bottom tier. Unlike how BMS now have double the hurrician with double the attack boast and still retain their SE. Basically its double the dmg..
This will only be applicable if the dmg formula for BMs hasn't change
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - Alloy - 2010-06-24
LegendGospel Wrote:5) Thieves complain about sharing a few branch skills? Well, all 3 magicians best training skill is Big Bang, lol. Byebye uniqueness.
Actually, Big Bang is only better if the monster you are attacking is neutral or strong to the element you'd be using, as far as I remember. And the only thing I meant with flash jump is that it simply takes the feel out of it. I mean, I chose a Hermit when I started just because it had flash jump. That was the only reason. But I do not want them to have theirs removed! It fits the definition of thieves perfectly. Move fast, etc. It's just that I would have liked to have the fastest moving class, regardless of damage. As I said, it was my only reasoning behind my choice D:
vx-2 Wrote:Well, it could be that, they will add a 2nd shadow partner for NLs? means they'll have two shadow partners instead. Quick solution to all whinning NLs. ^^
I doubt that'd fix anything, though. Damage is fantastically balanced between the two now. Shadowers want some nice 1 vs 1 damage? You now have it! Night Lords want some mobbing? Well, have your triple powered avenger!
What I see, though, is some movement skills. Like breaking the limit over 40 speed. Only with equips + haste, though, and up to another limit. Just a thought.
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - TøbiasBlack - 2010-06-24
Phoenix Wrote:I don't really agree with that. 700% is pretty powerful, and if the new magic dmg formula gives mages similar ranges to non magic jobs then it's satisfactory isn't it?
if you mean CL, id argue no. they gave up its ability to hit many targets for being only able to hit 3. thats real grade a BULL if i can say so. if they added a static damage to it akin to burn/poison, it might help make it seem a bit fair, or even if the skill stunned monsters for a while with a given chance to stun, something to make up for its diminished impact that isnt just pumping it with roids.
EDIT::
and im laughing my ass off at bandits getting FJ. if nothing else it'd explain DB's a bit more though in my eyes.
Nexon 1: "hurr dems peapoles keep sayin bandeet's suk."
Nexon 2: "We should come up with something to see if we can balance them!"
Nexon head: "Nah, lets do that, but give them TWO daggers *pause*, and give them a bunch of other flashy skills that'll make bandits more or less obsolete!"
Nexon 2: "But sir, how will that be fair?"
Head: "Simple, we make it a limited-availability class and have their skills be in the cash shop. it will make us even MORE wealthy!"
1: "but wut abaowt balence?"
Head: "eh screw it. we'll work on that after dual blades."
-is how i pictured them devising the tweaks to bandits. they just wanted to see how well a bandit would fare with some changes like FJ and such.
though i have to ask someone from kMS; do you still see DB's around? o-o
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - Shengz - 2010-06-24
Alloy Wrote:But in the end, it's mostly up to decide what skill to use where. Now we'll have that reflect skill, and with the punchless mode, we can actually try new tactics.
But... Right now, when people keep getting it, class after class, it feels like that part of "exclusive" wears off. Sure, we still have our own way to play (With less keys used up, though, that's what I like), but it feels weird now. An example of recovering the feeling would be, for example, a double jump ability, aside from flash jump. It'd have to be tweaked, but how fun could it be to jump, flash jump, JUMP IN THE AIR AGAIN, THEN FLASH JUMP AGAIN, and end up God knows where.
That's what I feel we need, and no more fancy damage. Damage is pretty much balanced now.
Agreed. I also did forget about the none punching effect now.. Sure thats nice but uhh now ninja storm is more useless than it is now.. Ninja storm atm is OK... but tbh if you're surrounded by that many monsters you might as well fj so you can keepthem in a line to avenger.. Stun doesn't last long enough and i'd rather maximize the mobbing than split the mob into little halves.. So... IMO <<< emphasizing on that..
NL useless skills
1. Ninja Ambush
2. Ninja Storm
3. Taunt
4. Meso up (unless you spend nx)
5. Shadow meso
6. Shadow web
7. Endure
8. Drain (to each is own, i rather just pot and maximize my damage.. pots are cheap enough for us as it is thanks to avoid/shifter)
9. Disorder
Skills that are ok...
1. Venom (sorta iffy on this im 50/50)
2. Shadow claw isn't as great anymore thanks to the new expert throwing.. Not as big of a NEED to max this.. Although i'm still quite unsure about if each star gets counted or if each attack gets counted..
Quote: This patch basically gives us SE dmg without SE with a bit extra attack, but nothing like other buffs. Our SE dmg makes us second best DPS in current game. Since they buffed the pomegranate out of everyone else. We are now bottom tier. Unlike how BMS now have double the hurrician with double the attack boast and still retain their SE. Basically its double the dmg..
3rd.
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - IllegallySane - 2010-06-24
jhkplaya888 Wrote:if that is true and we get a 120% ~150% "crit" with 55% chance that still doesn't equal the 200% dmg 70% crit of bms with extra atk boast AND better dmg formula. Nor does it equal those attack and dmg boasts of sairs, which already beat us in DPS.
there was 1 vid of a NL attacking in a pq and i saw base dmgs of 17-18k with crits of only 19k...
Old Triple Throw WITHOUT Sharp Eyes: 150% + 100% = 250% per star
NEW Triple Throw with Critical Mastery WITHOUT Sharp Eyes: 260%*1.3=338% ~ 260%*1.6= 416% (338%-416% per star WITHOUT SE)
Old Triple Throw WITH Sharp Eyes: 150% + 100% + 140% = 390% per star
NEW Triple Throw with Critical Mastery WITH Sharp Eyes: 260%*1.6=416% ~ 260%*1.9=494% (416%-494% per star WITH SE)
1.3-1.6 is the critical damage with Critical Mastery. 1.6-1.9 is the damage with Sharp Eyes.
Holy crap learn to math and you will clearly see Night Lords are FINE.
Shengz Wrote:Shadowers can bstep right after taunt and be 1 hitting guards. Avenger is a pure shyt skill, slow, and the venom that it will give off after +40% defence is added on will be pathetic as well. Also your bsing, killing faster than any other class? avenger? 180% skill? man you funny.
Don't spout nonsense without even looking at the data. Avenger does 530% per hit to 6 enemies now. Where have you been?
Good grief I go work on schoolwork for a couple hours and I see the last 4-5 pages reads like something out of Basil Market. Those who are QQing about their Night Lords no longer being strong have not even tried doing calculations. Well HERE. I did the math for you, and you are all FINE. In fact, you can not be more overpowered than you have been before.
And as for Deb: WOW you can't hit Zakum's top arms without using Boomerang Step when Assassinate annihilates every other boss because with Shadow Partner you will make EVERY OTHER BOSS YOU CAN TOUCH INTO MINCEMEAT. You complain about not being able to fight perfectly at ONE piece of a boss that every other body part you have no trouble hitting, and you think that entitles you to longer range attacks and calling Barrage stupidly cheap in range? Maybe I should cry that I suck at Grandpa Boss and his cronies because I can't even hit them, or cry that I can't exploit EXP at the gMS Neo Tokyo boss?
You say that this forum has people with huge egos yet you are implying at the fact you are better than most of Southperry. Pot meet kettle.
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - Five Second Pose - 2010-06-24
Alright, this has gone on long enough. (no, not locking the thread yet) The flaming stops here.
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - Loose - 2010-06-24
Shengz Wrote:NL useless skillsPre-patch useless Shadower skills:
1. Ninja Ambush
2. Ninja Storm
3. Taunt
4. Meso up (unless you spend nx)
5. Shadow meso
6. Shadow web
7. Endure
8. Drain (to each is own, i rather just pot and maximize my damage.. pots are cheap enough for us as it is thanks to avoid/shifter)
9. Disorder
1. Ninja Ambush
2. Steal*
3. Taunt
4. Pickpocket**
5. Shield Mastery
6. Lucky Seven
7. Endure
8. Chakra ("to each is own, i rather just pot and maximize my damage.. pots are cheap enough for us as it is thanks to avoid/shifter")
9. Disorder
* Skills that have been made better.
** Skills that have been made better if Meso Explosion works better.
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - Alloy - 2010-06-24
IllegallySane Wrote:Don't spout nonsense without even looking at the data. Avenger does 530% per hit to 6 enemies now. Where have you been?
Good grief I go work on schoolwork for a couple hours and I see the last 4-5 pages reads like something out of Basil Market. Those who are QQing about their Night Lords no longer being strong have not even tried doing calculations. Well HERE. I did the math for you, and you are all FINE. In fact, you can not be more overpowered than you have been before.
And as for Deb: WOW you can't hit Zakum's top arms with using Boomerrang Step when Assassinate annihilates every other boss because with Shadow Partner you will make EVERY OTHER BOSS YOU CAN TOUCH INTO MINCEMEAT. You complain about not being able to fight perfectly at ONE piece of a boss that every other body part you have no trouble hitting, and you think that entitles you to longer range attacks and calling Barrage stupidly cheap in range? Maybe I should cry that I suck at Grandpa Boss and his cronies because I can't even hit them, or cry that I can't exploit EXP at the gMS Neo Tokyo boss?
You say that this forum has people with huge egos yet you are gloating at the fact you are better than most of Southperry. Pot meet kettle.
Psst. He's talking about the old one.
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - jhkplaya888 - 2010-06-24
IllegallySane Wrote:Old Triple Throw WITHOUT Sharp Eyes: 150% + 100% = 250% per star
NEW Triple Throw with Critical Mastery WITHOUT Sharp Eyes: 260%*1.3=338% ~ 260%*1.6= 416% (338%-416% per star WITHOUT SE)
Old Triple Throw WITH Sharp Eyes: 150% + 100% + 140% = 390% per star
NEW Triple Throw with Critical Mastery WITH Sharp Eyes: 260%*1.6=416% ~ 260%*1.9=494% (416%-494% per star WITH SE)
1.3-1.6 is the critical damage with Critical Mastery. 1.6-1.9 is the damage with Sharp Eyes..
Like i been saying...we basically get our old TT with free SE boast 100% of the time...that MADE us 2nd dps in the game. Now if you buff everyone else. That will automatically make them stronger.
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - street - 2010-06-24
Seeing that brave slash is 720ms, how will it affect sword speed effect? Will we hit the speed max with a normal sword? Claymore now stonetooth? Some info about sword speed, limit etc will be helpful
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - LegendGospel - 2010-06-24
Phoenix Wrote:I don't really agree with that. 700% is pretty powerful, and if the new magic dmg formula gives mages similar ranges to non magic jobs then it's satisfactory isn't it?
I hope so.
However, if you ask any magician now, the status of CL, Paralyze and Angel Ray is pretty unsatisfactory. Raising Big Bang for everyone seems like a really cheap way to avoid balancing these skills.
CL lost its mob control (to gain more damage), Paralyze lost its single target top damage (to gain mob control), and Angel Ray seems unusable cause of range, unless it has some hidden quirk, it just sucks. Everything is just a mess now.
More so, Magicians can't compete against melee jobs on anything but perhaps training.
I think Magicians could be balanced more by fixing their unique abilities.
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - donovan - 2010-06-24
Magician tweaking still needs a bit of work.
Ultimate are now just about useless, new Archmages would put 1 point on Ultimates for the flare, but after that it's much better to max everything else.
Ultimates need to be transformed, if they could get it to work like Combo Tempest on bosses, that'd be fixing all of the remaining issues of all 3 classes. For training possibly reduce the mob count, and the damage to around Earthquake levels, along with the range.
I already mentioned the uselessness of Cold Beam, and the absence of notable Freezing skills in the I/L Archmages 4th Job.
As much as I like Big Bang, I don't like all 3 classes being stuck to one skill for the best damage.
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - Shengz - 2010-06-24
IllegallySane Wrote:Old Triple Throw WITHOUT Sharp Eyes: 150% + 100% = 250% per star
NEW Triple Throw with Critical Mastery WITHOUT Sharp Eyes: 260%*1.3=338% ~ 260%*1.6= 416% (338%-416% per star WITHOUT SE)
Old Triple Throw WITH Sharp Eyes: 150% + 100% + 140% = 390% per star
NEW Triple Throw with Critical Mastery WITH Sharp Eyes: 260%*1.6=416% ~ 260%*1.9=494% (416%-494% per star WITH SE)
1.3-1.6 is the critical damage with Critical Mastery. 1.6-1.9 is the damage with Sharp Eyes.
Holy crap learn to math and you will clearly see Night Lords are FINE.
Don't spout nonsense without even looking at the data. Avenger does 530% per hit to 6 enemies now. Where have you been?
Good grief I go work on schoolwork for a couple hours and I see the last 4-5 pages reads like something out of Basil Market. Those who are QQing about their Night Lords no longer being strong have not even tried doing calculations. Well HERE. I did the math for you, and you are all FINE. In fact, you can not be more overpowered than you have been before.
And as for Deb: WOW you can't hit Zakum's top arms without using Boomerang Step when Assassinate annihilates every other boss because with Shadow Partner you will make EVERY OTHER BOSS YOU CAN TOUCH INTO MINCEMEAT. You complain about not being able to fight perfectly at ONE piece of a boss that every other body part you have no trouble hitting, and you think that entitles you to longer range attacks and calling Barrage stupidly cheap in range? Maybe I should cry that I suck at Grandpa Boss and his cronies because I can't even hit them, or cry that I can't exploit EXP at the gMS Neo Tokyo boss?
You say that this forum has people with huge egos yet you are implying at the fact you are better than most of Southperry. Pot meet kettle.
I don't even need to read the rest of your post because you obviously haven't been following.. this argument was about before all this o-o and when did i gloat? i never stated i was better than anyone here..
Quote: 1. Ninja Ambush
2. Steal*
3. Taunt
4. Pickpocket**
5. Shield Mastery
6. Lucky Seven
7. Endure
8. Chakra ("to each is own, i rather just pot and maximize my damage.. pots are cheap enough for us as it is thanks to avoid/shifter")
9. Disorder
* Skills that have been made better.
** Skills that have been made better if Meso Explosion works better.
Oh i guess you can add Double stab to my list too.. Anyways uhmm How is taunt useless? that skill makes shadowers the 2nd fastest trainers.. and many people who train their CB's use pickpocket and m/e during training i know i did.. But the rest i agree with.
Quote: And as for Deb: WOW you can't hit Zakum's top arms with using Boomerrang Step when Assassinate annihilates every other boss because with Shadow Partner you will make EVERY OTHER BOSS YOU CAN TOUCH INTO MINCEMEAT.
Failed to read again. He also listed HT body parts that he could not reach.
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - Cactuar - 2010-06-24
LegendGospel Wrote:I hope so.
However, if you ask any magician now, the status of CL, Paralyze and Angel Ray is pretty unsatisfactory. Raising Big Bang for everyone seems like a really cheap way to avoid balancing these skills.
CL lost its mob control (to gain more damage), Paralyze lost its single target top damage (to gain mob control), and Angel Ray seems unusable cause of range, unless it has some hidden quirk, it just sucks. Everything is just a mess now.
More so, Magicians can't compete against melee jobs on anything but perhaps training.
I think Magicians could be balanced more by fixing their unique abilities.
Wait... are you saying we should ask magicians about something they have no idea about? You do know they changed how magic works completely, right? The damage, accuracy, everything. Unless you're a part of KMST, I'm pretty sure most of these magicians understand very little about how it works now.
[1.2.321] Skill Balancing - Edelstein & Leben - IllegallySane - 2010-06-24
Alloy Wrote:Psst. He's talking about the old one.
Didn't know he was talking about the old one. Oh well, the warning won't be bothering me. I just had to let that off my chest.
As for the latest changes as a whole, I really wish Bishops didn't get a kick in the crotch on Dragon and Bahamut getting nerfed. Otherwise, everything almost seems set, that it's almost balanced enough to be officially released. Content wise of course, it could maybe use a little more tweaking here and there but hearing how fast people are leveling it's probably fine.
Shengz Wrote:I don't even need o read the rest of your post because you obviously haven't been following.. this argument was about before all this o-o and when did i gloat? i never stated i was better than anyone here..
The gloating part was aimed at Deb, not you. Also, I was mainly pointing out to jhkplaya888 how Night Lords are not weak in kMST, as well as showing critical damage is still going to be mighty impressive (260% vs 416%-494% with SE means you will be seeing roughly double your damage in red). Night Lords will have 55% crit rate under this new system, 5% higher than now, and with SE that's 70% crit chance. You're better off than before.