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+--- Thread: New Root Abyss Equip Drop (/showthread.php?tid=69177)
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - Haishiro - 2014-01-15
kayeyearekay Wrote:snip
>People bringing their own mules to farm loot
Simple: make it so that it's actually difficult to stay alive in a boss fight while controlling the main and the mules. If such a person is able to miraculously do so (or has friends log on as "mules"), then there isn't really a good way to limit that without penalizing support characters. Yes, "support" is a joke in Maplestory, but it doesn't mean you can penalize the so-called "support" characters for having innately lower DPS.
>Alternative loot systems
The absolute simplest, quickest fix would be to limit the amount of drop slots there are. Say item X drops at a 5% rate. If the number of "slots" for that drop was limited to 3, then Player A on 1x drop has a ~14.3% chance of getting at least one drop and a ~0.01% chance of getting all 3, Player B on 8x drop has a ~78.4% of getting at least 1 drop and 6.4% of all 3, and Player C on 20x drop (if it were possible) has a 100% chance of getting all 3. The point of the numbers is that, yes, there's a big disparity between Player A and Player C simply because of how ridiculous drop multipliers could get, but at least the number of items are capped.
Now it'd be much more interesting (and arguably fair) to implement a Need/Greed system with some modifications. Obviously the main problem with Need/Greed is those players who "Need" everything, but this is easily solved by combining it with a variant of the Point system:
-The normal system of N/G is used to determine who rolls
-The player who obtains the item loses their entire point balance
-The players who picked Need but get the item get a moderate** point boost which increases their relative weight in their next roll(s)
-The players who picked Greed get a high** point boost which greatly increases their relative weight in their next roll(s)
-If everyone picks Greed, point balances are unchanged
* Need rolls need to have high enough weights to minimize Greed-ers getting lucky enough to beat Need-ers frequently
** Actual values will have to be tuned to discourage constant "Need"ing, but ideally the system should encourage everyone to pick Greed all the time unless they REALLY want the item loot (i.e. picking Need often is disadvantageous). For example, Greed-ing (and not getting the item) ~ 10*** times gives you a high enough point balance to safely win your next Need pick against people with zero balance. The points can even be capped to prevent "stockpiling" if anything thinks that it's a problem. I believe that solves the problem of abuse.
*** Just randomly picked a number. A statistically supported number would be much better.
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - Dark Link - 2014-01-15
Haishiro Wrote:>People bringing their own mules to farm loot
Simple: make it so that it's actually difficult to stay alive in a boss fight while controlling the main and the mules. If such a person is able to miraculously do so (or has friends log on as "mules"), then there isn't really a good way to limit that without penalizing support characters. Yes, "support" is a joke in Maplestory, but it doesn't mean you can penalize the so-called "support" characters for having innately lower DPS.
So the problem with that:
Root Abyss: People already leave their loot mules in the room before the boss map.
Empress: It's a bit tougher compared to RA, but you can have the loot mules afk in the banished room after all of the adds are dead.
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - Green4Ever - 2014-01-15
Dark Link Wrote:Empress: It's a bit tougher compared to RA, but you can have the loot mules afk in the banished room after all of the adds are dead.
Or you can just rush Empress to one side and keep her there, while the mules stay on the opposite side.
Getting her to kick mules out can take a while sometimes, and could result in the mules dying as well.
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - Dark Link - 2014-01-15
Green4Ever Wrote:Or you can just rush Empress to one side and keep her there, while the mules stay on the opposite side.
Getting her to kick mules out can take a while sometimes, and could result in the mules dying as well.
Was unsure if that was still a viable strat considering the summons and V1 / V2 like to be dicks.
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - Green4Ever - 2014-01-15
Dark Link Wrote:Was unsure if that was still a viable strat considering the summons and V1 / V2 like to be dicks.
Yeah I guess that's a valid point. It really just means you'll have less room to run away if you get in trouble, but then again if you're bringing a full party of mules I'm assuming you're at the point where you shouldn't even be getting in trouble in the first place.
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - Haishiro - 2014-01-15
Dark Link Wrote:So the problem with that:
Root Abyss: People already leave their loot mules in the room before the boss map.
Empress: It's a bit tougher compared to RA, but you can have the loot mules afk in the banished room after all of the adds are dead.
Like I said in an earlier post, implement an entrance timer (prevent players from entering after the fight has started [and also make Pierre start on demand like the other RA bosses]) and make survivability actually a thing in boss fights since almost everyone already agrees that the current bossing system/mechanics suck anyways.
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - kayeyearekay - 2014-01-15
Haishiro Wrote:Like I said in an earlier post, implement an entrance timer (prevent players from entering after the fight has started [and also make Pierre start on demand like the other RA bosses]) and make survivability actually a thing in boss fights since almost everyone already agrees that the current bossing system/mechanics suck anyways.
at CRA (and gollux), when the boss is killed, everyone in the party is transported to the loot room, even if you are a ghost, from any location in the instance. i haven't killed empress since preUnleashed, so idk if her loot room is an auto-warp.
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - KhainiWest - 2014-01-15
kayeyearekay Wrote:sounds like you just saw my name and had to respondthanks for the interest. im gonna try to address all the points of your gwot.
No, I see you mention me twice, I read your text to see your retorts, and respond promptly. To be honest you keep attacking this point of constructive criticism, but ever since the first engagement I told you why I thought it was a ridiculous idea. That is in fact constructive criticism. The problem is you're being hyper sensitive looking for specificall politically correct statements to validate arguments. In essense you're seeking sympathy because I'm going to harsh on you, when in fact by my standard I'm being extra considerate, as anyone here can confirm.
kayeyearekay Wrote:what reasons??? Telling someone their "idea sucks because it sucks", doesn't help the topic. you weren't actually contributing were you? Even your follow up comments don't reflect what my model represents.
Here you go, the very first post regarding you, if you just scroll up you should see it;
Spoiler
Hm, looks like you stopped reading at "3 years".
Must be embarrassing that it's staring you right in the face.
kayeyearekay Wrote:you're doing the same exact thing. You've got the longest comment so far. mostly hatorade.
LOL? What. Do you know what an anecdote is? Although nothing here will be seen as historic, unless for humor at this rate anyway, I made a small statement about maplestory as a whole. This was not the topic of interest as I didn't expand on it. I did not add details, I just merely made a statement.
What I have been saying on the other hand is why your perspective is ridiculous;
-There are no loot mule issues, there might be now because of the increased drop rate, but if we fix the issue of the ridiculous drop rate, then were back to loot mules being a rare occurance. Assuming we use your system, then we just have an increased prejudice for certain classes.
-You're claiming I'm harrassing you, when reall I'm just saying your idea is ridiculous. Now if you want to make the assumption that your idea then creates your identity that's on you. I have said nothing specifically towards you, but you idea. Feel free to report, the moderators are often bored here because we don't deal with the crap other forums do.
kayeyearekay Wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole a 2m~2m character won't take such a person, unless it's a loot mule, which is also being discussed.
Loot mules are being discussed because of the increased drop rate and people trying to avoid scissors of karma on items that without the necessity of NX would be worthless. You fix the drop rate, loot mules become irrelevant, unless you want to discuss the destructive effect of people mass looting zakum f`ucking helms lmao.
kayeyearekay Wrote:I can perspectivation different socioeconomic maple groupings just fine, so I can understand the 1%ers maple has. I, myself, have not been top dpser since unleashed raised the damage cap. KhainiWest; I dont think you actually read what I wrote in my model. My suggested additions to nexon's new Party-Loot in RA/Cygnus actually benefits an entire party of similar funded players. It increases all their chances to loot, whenever the top dpser receives loot.
I'm not sure if a 100% guaranteed loot would work or not. Maybe there is benefit from adding a 5%-95% variance, to help account for support classes. The reason my model is general, is for a system that will work on every boss as well as to be improved upon.
"additions", so you support the fact we get essentially 6x drop with you adding an additional multiplier? I don't really need to discuss further from there.
kayeyearekay Wrote:But that just depends on the type of people invited to the raid. eHemm. need b4 greed is a weighted system. In maplestory an easy example of rng are/were mmbs. the number of different mastery books is over nine thousand! A hero opening wild arrow blast book, is just a disappointment. in this case, a weighted system leaned towards hero or even just warrior, would increase the chance of a hero getting beneficial skill book. Our current npc book system completely removes the rng, and only class specific books are chosen. However, the old mmbs are still in the game.
Weighted systems can be beneficial. How can Need b4 Greed be implemented into maple without player abuse? or without bogging down the server/client connection? Players have difficulty in bingo & yut
Maplestory skill book system is stupid and should be scrapped all together. We're talking about bossing not gacha items which is an entirely different animal.
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - Niernen - 2014-01-15
Just to point out, having classes have an increased chance to get their class-usable drops from bosses would probably not be a good thing. Sure, it works fine when training since the equips normal mobs drop are not that great, but for most bosses, people end up killing them to profit off the gear. If classes had a higher chance of getting their equips from a boss, then the whole market would be skewed in favor of the few that kill the bosses class. For example, BelloNova would probably have more archer gear, lowering their already low prices (at least for Empress). The only way to off set this would be to kill bosses with parties of at least one of every class type, but that is not always possible.
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - Takebacker - 2014-01-15
Niernen Wrote:Just to point out, having classes have an increased chance to get their class-usable drops from bosses would probably not be a good thing. Sure, it works fine when training since the equips normal mobs drop are not that great, but for most bosses, people end up killing them to profit off the gear. If classes had a higher chance of getting their equips from a boss, then the whole market would be skewed in favor of the few that kill the bosses class. For example, BelloNova would probably have more archer gear, lowering their already low prices (at least for Empress). The only way to off set this would be to kill bosses with parties of at least one of every class type, but that is not always possible.
I thought we already had this imported from KMS in unleashed though. It was just a silent change.
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - kayeyearekay - 2014-01-15
i dunno about bosses, but at warrior grounds, and DIPQ, my warriors mostly only see warrior drops.
last night at CRA, the loots seemed random spread.
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - Niernen - 2014-01-15
Normal mobs should be dropping more equips of your class than not, bosses shouldn't.
Another set like the purple senior set would be cool (for unfunded), where it depends on the class that loots it. Or more all class/common armors. I don't get why most common armors have to be event items. Why not have a crafting and rare drops set from normal activities? Non tradebind (but maybe account on equip?), so you can share it between different characters.
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - hadriel - 2014-01-15
It is not difficult to weight loot drops for the players participating in e.g. cRA. The only question to ask is: how do you want to weight it? That question still stands regardless of how the drop mechanics work, be it an individualised loot like what we're arguing and being unhappy/happy about now, or whether it's an FFA of sorts (which people are also arguing and being unhappy/happy about).
While I'm not versed in programming or computing, several options come into play that are fairly common-sense (not all are necessarily applicable). All of these will be subject to both RNG and normal/something distribution...
Drop rate suggestions... might be a little gritty on the details
Personally, I don't feel that one person dominating the DPS should get virtually all the drops, in that a weak player would want to feel fairly rewarded for at least surviving a top-tier boss fight and contributing to it in several ways such as contributing to the DPSer's damage via buffs and auras.
More details
In fact, I feel that this is a great chance for Nexon to implement machine learning, which would recognise how much a player contributes to bringing a boss down e.g. if your aura increases someone's DPS by 20%, you should be rewarded as though you yourself did that kind of DPS. It doesn't need to be complicated, such as a quick background check on how much your buff/aura increased someone's range by, and then somehow add that to your range.
I know I'm just throwing many ideas here that probably are implemented, are not implement, or are just fantasies. But I feel that the individualised drop system is really for the better on the whole, not so much for the economy (because that's when abuse comes in and GMs etc. have headaches... like we're not supposed to have mule accounts by right, but about every Tom, plantain and Harry down the street has some number of mule accounts...).
You develop ideas for the desired end-result; you don't trash an idea for what would happen if abused (to a reasonable extent, that is), but rather you work around and improve it.
Hadriel
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - kayeyearekay - 2014-01-15
hadriel Wrote:It is not difficult to weight loot drops for the players participating in e.g. cRA. The only question to ask is: how do you want to weight it? That question still stands regardless of how the drop mechanics work, be it an individualised loot like what we're arguing and being unhappy/happy about now, or whether it's an FFA of sorts (which people are also arguing and being unhappy/happy about).
(...snip...)
In fact, I feel that this is a great chance for Nexon to implement machine learning, which would recognise how much a player contributes to bringing a boss down e.g. if your aura increases someone's DPS by 20%, you should be rewarded as though you yourself did that kind of DPS. It doesn't need to be complicated, such as a quick background check on how much your buff/aura increased someone's range by, and then somehow add that to your range.
I know I'm just throwing many ideas here that probably are implemented, are not implement, or are just fantasies. But I feel that the individualised drop system is really for the better on the whole, not so much for the economy (because that's when abuse comes in and GMs etc. have headaches... like we're not supposed to have mule accounts by right, but about every Tom, plantain and Harry down the street has some number of mule accounts...).
You develop ideas for the desired end-result; you don't trash an idea for what would happen if abused (to a reasonable extent, that is), but rather you work around and improve it.
Hadriel
I like this stuff. Add in a static bonus for each successful bind, magic crash, buff dispell, to cover the rest of support skills.
Will this aura bonus include regular buffs like rage/medi, or bishop hyper bless/hs? or be restricted to BaMs/Zeros/etc just Aura skills?
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - hadriel - 2014-01-15
kayeyearekay Wrote:I like this stuff. Add in a static bonus for each successful bind, magic crash, buff dispell, to cover the rest of support skills.
Will this aura bonus include regular buffs like rage/medi, or bishop hyper bless/hs? or be restricted to BaMs/Zeros/etc just Aura skills?
It should be able to work for all buffs. The simplified model has a major problem, which is that the servers probably don't track your range or live damage. That is rather data-intensive. Right now, EXP is distributed based on damage dealt, and to ask.of the above would require a heavy coding rework (not the infrastructure, but rather the mechanics and testing). Individualised drop system with some sort of damage-function seed is as goof as it gets, with the [rather lame] assumption that every class is equally capable of bossing.
Power creep creeps in everywhere...
Hadriel
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - RedRaven16 - 2014-01-15
Dark Link Wrote:So the problem with that:
Root Abyss: People already leave their loot mules in the room before the boss map.
Empress: It's a bit tougher compared to RA, but you can have the loot mules afk in the banished room after all of the adds are dead.
Solution for RA would be after the boss hits a certen amount of hp you are unable to enter the room and for empress there could be a reasonable timer for people to get out of the banish room
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - kayeyearekay - 2014-01-15
RedRaven16 Wrote:Solution for RA would be after the boss hits a certen amount of hp you are unable to enter the room and for empress there could be a reasonable timer for people to get out of the banish room
wont work; they could just enter, suicide, stay a ghost, because everyone is transported into the loot map
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - RedRaven16 - 2014-01-15
kayeyearekay Wrote:wont work; they could just enter, suicide, stay a ghost, because everyone is transported into the loot map
% death count for Ra wont allow that to happen in RA and there is a 10? min timer on death before auto revive. I dont remember the time before forced revive but its there.
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - Haishiro - 2014-01-15
kayeyearekay Wrote:wont work; they could just enter, suicide, stay a ghost, because everyone is transported into the loot map
Thanks for bringing up these points, because since I've never done Empress I wouldn't know these things.
At the same time, are you just trying to be difficult? If staying as a ghost is a problem, then also make it so that dead characters get kicked outside at the end of the fight. It's a minor fix.
New Root Abyss Equip Drop - kayeyearekay - 2014-01-15
RedRaven16 Wrote:% death count for Ra wont allow that to happen in RA and there is a 10? min timer on death before auto revive. I dont remember the time before forced revive but its there.
with death count 05, a loot mule can enter the boss room, and die, then gain ~50 mins. at 10mins of ghost time, RA will auto-rez you in the boss fight, then subsequent deaths give you each 10 mins until your final 00 death count.
Haishiro Wrote:Thanks for bringing up these points, because since I've never done Empress I wouldn't know these things.
At the same time, are you just trying to be difficult? If staying as a ghost is a problem, then also make it so that dead characters get kicked outside at the end of the fight. It's a minor fix.
i actually like ghosts getting into the loot map. but, i think in the empress fight when you die, you're dead