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Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - Printable Version

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Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - Russt - 2008-12-04

I was thinking... why DU a higher priority than Backspin? It barely helps in 2nd job; it's almost the same damage as Flash Fist twice, at almost the same speed.

To illustrate my point (I'm assuming LazyBui is correct here, I know some values are off but those are mainly the spammed delays, not the lengths)

2x Flash Fist is 1.02 seconds long.
Double Uppercut is 0.96 seconds long, or 1.06x faster than 2x Flash Fist.

2x Flash Fist deals 540% damage.
Double Uppercut deals 580% damage, or 1.07x stronger than 2x Flash Fist.

6% faster and 7% stronger? Great, but is it really better than being able to chain stronger mobbing combos with Backspin?

I'm not saying you should skip Double Uppercut entirely, of course. Its stun would come in handy in 3rd job. But based on the fact that it's barely stronger than Flash Fist even when spammed, and it isn't spammable in the first place, should it be pushed farther back?

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - Takebacker - 2008-12-04

It helps a ton on single targets obviously.

DU -> FF -> FF -> DU -> rinse and repeat is amazing.

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - Russt - 2008-12-04

Takebacker Wrote:It helps a ton on single targets obviously.

DU -> FF -> FF -> DU -> rinse and repeat is amazing.
But what makes DU -> FF x2 -> repeat (I'll call this A) that much better than FF x4 -> repeat (I'll call this B)?

A is 1.98 seconds long and totals 1120% damage
B is 2.04 seconds long and totals 1080% damage

What's so amazing about such minute differences?

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - InBomb - 2008-12-04

Russt Wrote:But what makes DU -> FF x2 -> repeat (I'll call this A) that much better than FF x4 -> repeat (I'll call this B)?

A is 1.98 seconds long and totals 1120% damage
B is 2.04 seconds long and totals 1080% damage

What's so amazing about such minute differences?

It's obvious.
40% more damage and a few seconds of stun.

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - Russt - 2008-12-04

InBomb Wrote:It's obvious.
40% more damage and a few seconds of stun.
And maxing Backspin adds 160%x3 more damage with mob stun.

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - Dusk - 2008-12-05

E-penor size? People were getting all hyped over a Brawler hitting 5k or something around level 60 with the skill. Meanwhile my Fighter matches the power of Brawler who could spam DU at level 48.

Mobbing > Single-target.

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - ZachAttack - 2008-12-05

No idea. Too bad it's too late for me, I've already gotten 6 points in it so I'm just gonna max it.

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - madanthony - 2008-12-05

I think people take screw as their primary mob move, so they deem a fresh single target skill as a good next step, rather than backspin, which is a little redundant after corkscrew. They compare DU vs. Backspin, rather than DU vs. FF

Personally, I like being able to pop off a strong ohko while I traveling, and for more certainty in finishing off the stragglers from a big mob. And yeah... epeen size is a plus.

Now that I've finished maxing DU though, I'm really looking forward to a decent % mob hit with backspin instead of uncharged screw or waiting to charge screw. I like to mob most areas uncharged screw->SK all the way across an area until I've got a whopping mob. Looking forward to BB->SK instead.

[/rambling]

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - ZachAttack - 2008-12-05

madanthony Wrote:I think people take screw as their primary mob move, so they deem a fresh single target skill as a good next step, rather than backspin, which is a little redundant after corkscrew. They compare DU vs. Backspin, rather than DU vs. FF

Personally, I like being able to pop off a strong ohko while I traveling, and for more certainty in finishing off the stragglers from a big mob. And yeah... epeen size is a plus.

Now that I've finished maxing DU though, I'm really looking forward to a decent % mob hit with backspin instead of uncharged screw or waiting to charge screw. I like to mob most areas uncharged screw->SK all the way across an area until I've got a whopping mob. Looking forward to BB->SK instead.

[/rambling]

Random, but is backspin 6 or 3 mons?

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - JoeTang - 2008-12-05

There's the practicality of two guaranteed hits as opposed to FF kbing too far or not having enough range. Or does it not guarantee the two hits like Double Stab does?

Otherwise, it's marginally better, but not by much. It's more of a set up for Stun Mastery. Especially since it hits twice.

Backspin is 3 monsters. You're 5x. You should already have a point into it.

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - ZachAttack - 2008-12-05

JoeTang Wrote:There's the practicality of two guaranteed hits as opposed to FF kbing too far or not having enough range. Or does it not guarantee the two hits like Double Stab does?

Otherwise, it's marginally better, but not by much. It's more of a set up for Stun Mastery. Especially since it hits twice.

Backspin is 3 monsters. You're 5x. You should already have a point into it.

I do, but some skills hit more monsters as you put more points in it.

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - Loose - 2008-12-05

JoeTang Wrote:There's the practicality of two guaranteed hits as opposed to FF kbing too far or not having enough range. Or does it not guarantee the two hits like Double Stab does?
Both hits are guaranteed.

I usually use it as a finisher or just BSpin, turn around Uppercut, turn around BSpin, turn around Uppercut, etc. The last one is when I don't feel like getting hit.

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - InBomb - 2008-12-05

Russt Wrote:And maxing Backspin adds 160%x3 more damage with mob stun.

I was comparing the 1 DU > 2 FF > 1 DU comparison--Not the Backspin comparison.
Of course Backspin would be better overall then DU due to mobs. But when mobs aren't around--well, you get the idea.

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - Russt - 2008-12-05

InBomb Wrote:I was comparing the 1 DU > 2 FF > 1 DU comparison--Not the Backspin comparison.
Of course Backspin would be better overall then DU due to mobs. But when mobs aren't around--well, you get the idea.
You were talking about what DU adds to FF, I was talking about what Backspin adds to... well, itself. Compared to it, maxing DU doesn't give much of a benefit even in the context of single attacking.

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - ZachAttack - 2008-12-05

Then again though - you won't be spamming backspin blow either. backspin blow -> flash fist would be about as effective as upper -> 2x flash fist (can someone do that calc? I don't know about those stuff), right?

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - Russt - 2008-12-05

ZachAttack Wrote:Then again though - you won't be spamming backspin blow either. backspin blow -> flash fist would be about as effective as upper -> 2x flash fist (can someone do that calc? I don't know about those stuff), right?
Why would you Backspin -> Fist? Backspin -> SSK if anything. And anyway, I'm referring to the points you gain from maxing it versus the points you gain from maxing DU.

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - ZachAttack - 2008-12-05

Russt Wrote:Why would you Backspin -> Fist? Backspin -> SSK if anything. And anyway, I'm referring to the points you gain from maxing it versus the points you gain from maxing DU.

I was just referring to the way Loose trained. I've not been able to use bs efficiently seeing as it's level 1, so I thought that's how.
But yeah, I guess you would SSK after wards.

But wouldn't corkscrew kind of manage the same thing? I guess it would somewhat weaker, but still, does that make BSB priority skill?

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - Russt - 2008-12-05

Corkscrew does, yes, but it's best used in combination with Backspin, so I've heard.

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - DrRusty - 2008-12-05

Most people mob with corkscrew, and you can't do corkscrew -> backspin. So instead of getting a second mobbing skill, it's better to get a strong single attack that stuns.

And double upper -> x2 flash fist is better than flash fist x4

At lvl 1 backspin already does everything you need it to do (stun and mob 3 monsters). It wasn't meant as a damage dealing attack. Double upper needs sp to do what its meant for (damage).

Double Uppercut: not so interesting? - RahlsSoldier - 2008-12-05

I think the reason DU is a good skill is because of stun mastery. If you think about it, if you hit an already stunned monster with DU, both hits will have the critical opportunity, and at the same time continue the stun. Meanwhile, if you use FF, you only get 1 hit in and it's only a 60% multiplier. My belief is that it follows the same concept as Arrow Blow and Double Shot.