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+---- Thread: Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? (/showthread.php?tid=39276)
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Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - Green4Ever - 2011-03-14
These will be the last skills I have to max soon and I can't decide which one would be better to max.
Fire Demon isn't a very strong attack and only has 110% DoT, which makes me think it's pretty useless
Mana Reflection's 60% Success rate turns me away from wanting to use it, but the 1000% Damage Reflected seems useful, so I just don't know
Thoughts?
One of the skills I will be able to max while the other one I will only be able to raise to Lvl 14.
I maxed Hero's Will since I do use it at different bosses.
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - Dusk - 2011-03-14
imo they're both fairly useless/negligible at the moment. I had maxed FD before Big Bang and for about a week after Big Bang before we got SP resets, and I didn't see any reason to use it over Paralyze. Fire Demon gets buffed in Chaos, but you get an SP reset along with it.
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - SilverMage - 2011-03-14
I maxed Fire Demon early on, I use it a lot along with Mist at bosses and now at LKC, it's pretty useful, much more so than Big Bang since the DoT lasts 15 seconds.
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - Green4Ever - 2011-03-14
I'm actually finding Big Bang to be very useful at LHC.
I had Fire Demon maxed Pre-BB too, but the only time I ever used it was against Bigfoot or if I was killing some mob that was immune to Poison, and now I don't do either of those, so it's become useless to me.
I still want some opinions about Mana Reflection before I decide which one I max.
Honestly, I never use DoT. It's very weak, even with my ~38k buffed ranged. Recasting DoT every 5 seconds is slower than purely spamming Paralyze, imo.
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - Kalovale - 2011-03-14
I think it'd do the author justice if you read this thread once: http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=33876
Supposing it is to your interest, that is.
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - IImaplers - 2011-03-14
Kalovale Wrote:I think it'd do the author justice if you read this thread once: http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=33876
Supposing it is to your interest, that is.
I was looking for that thread too
OT: I think MR would actually be more beneficial for the TS. Since paralyze has more DPM than FD, and TS is not a DOT aficianado.
Even though FD is fancy and has great DOT duration, I think MR would add to Paralyze spamming DPM, while FD would only decrease it, since casting FD prevents you from casting Para.
I'm still not completely sure on which is a more beneficial skill to have maxed against multiple bosses, or bosses with multiple parts.
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - Chilly - 2011-03-14
I don't really think monsters attack with enough damage or with enough frequency to warrant putting points into Mana Reflection. Adding to that, if the skill is true to its "reverse the mana flow" description, I'd assume it only applies to magical attacks and we all know (or I guess don't know) how monsters' magic attacks are in game i.e. ranged physical vs. actual magic. The previous fact adds to the frequency aspect where maybe 1 in 3 attacks (at bosses) will be magical and compounding that with only 60% of the time reflection, you see where this is going...
I hadn't planned on doing this, but I'm early for class and you provide such a great example that I couldn't resist. You are actually a great hindrance to Mana Reflect's ability: Using your 3600M.DEF at level 183, Ariel and her highest, theoretical M.ATT (thanks SP Database) of 13500 at level 180 and the SP Monster Damage Calculator, the maximum damage you could incur is 9450 with a return of 94500. I've never gone PBing nor do I know the mechanics of how a run occurs or when what monster attacks, but as a simplified example, your FD DoT could clear that 100% of the time in less than 3 seconds.
Also using your other screens as an example, I've become quite jealous of an L/I AM's inability to tank hits at bosses; CL lacks the dual directionality of Paralyze and tanking, at least for me, often results in facing the wrong direction for a cast or casting past the monster. Why wander tangentially like that? Tanking also reduces Mana Reflect's ability as I'd assume you'd be receiving physical damage all the time never allowing for magical damage, if it exists, to occur.
Future Ereve monsters might have more M.ATT, but even then I can't say it will improve the utility of Mana Reflect that much and it would appear I have run out of time. Perhaps an update later...
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - Dusk - 2011-03-14
Green4Ever Wrote:I'm actually finding Big Bang to be very useful at LHC.
I had Fire Demon maxed Pre-BB too, but the only time I ever used it was against Bigfoot or if I was killing some mob that was immune to Poison, and now I don't do either of those, so it's become useless to me.
I still want some opinions about Mana Reflection before I decide which one I max.
Honestly, I never use DoT. It's very weak, even with my ~38k buffed ranged. Recasting DoT every 5 seconds is slower than purely spamming Paralyze, imo.
DoT isn't weak at all. My Paralyze hits a little under 100k non-crits, and with Meteor, Poison Mist, Comp, and Paralyze DoTs running, I've seen 80k+ ticks.
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - Green4Ever - 2011-03-14
Dusk Wrote:DoT isn't weak at all. My Paralyze hits a little under 100k non-crits, and with Meteor, Poison Mist, Comp, and Paralyze DoTs running, I've seen 80k+ ticks.
It is compared to spamming Paralyze.
Recasting DoT every few seconds slows down DPS
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - hadriel - 2011-03-14
I note that FD synergises with BB for F/P Archs.
Hadriel
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - Dusk - 2011-03-14
Green4Ever Wrote:It is compared to spamming Paralyze.
Recasting DoT every few seconds slows down DPS
Comp does nearly as much damage as Paralyze. The DoT makes up for the very slight damage loss. If Meteor actually lasted 10 seconds, the very high DoT would make up for the damage loss. Poison Mist lasts 40 seconds.
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - Green4Ever - 2011-03-14
Dusk Wrote:Comp does nearly as much damage as Paralyze. The DoT makes up for the very slight damage loss. If Meteor actually lasted 10 seconds, the very high DoT would make up for the damage loss. Poison Mist lasts 40 seconds.
Yes, but this is not an "if" situation, this is the real thing. I'll worry about DoT when they actually fix it and make everything stack properly and last as long as it's supposed to.
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - IImaplers - 2011-03-14
Dusk Wrote:Comp does nearly as much damage as Paralyze. The DoT makes up for the very slight damage loss. If Meteor actually lasted 10 seconds, the very high DoT would make up for the damage loss. Poison Mist lasts 40 seconds.
So you're saying that comp-spamming (since comp's DoT works like it is supposed to) can outdamage paralyze-spamming (since para's DoT does not work like it's supposed to)? It looks like they might be close now, but not so after chaos.
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - JoeTang - 2011-03-14
The argument that DoTs slow down DPS is completely invalid with regards to Fire Demon as it lasts the full 15 seconds whereas other skills are glitched. If every skill were to last its correct duration, proc'ing every DoT except Poison Breath would be a DPS improvement. As it is right now, only Poison Mist and Fire Demon will improve DPS with Paralyze.
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - Dusk - 2011-03-14
IImaplers Wrote:para's DoT does not work like it's supposed to
The only thing wrong with Para is the DoT timer, which is irrelevant if you're spamming it.
Right now, the best DPS for F/Ps in GMS is Paralyze spam while keeping Poison Mist and Fire Demon up (and Teleporting if possible). If they fix the timers, you should also keep Comp up and cast Meteor on cd.
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - IImaplers - 2011-03-14
Dusk Wrote:The only thing wrong with Para is the DoT timer, which is irrelevant if you're spamming it.
Right now, the best DPS for F/Ps in GMS is Paralyze spam while keeping Poison Mist and Fire Demon up (and Teleporting if possible). If they fix the timers, you should also keep Comp up and cast Meteor on cd.
But I thought that once DoT starts (for any skill) it should not be interrupted (for any skill), and that paralyze still interrupts it unlike the other DoT skills. Please correct me if I'm wrong. That's one important thing I have to test myself to be sure.
I digress, since comp is fire-based (and poison-based), and since most LHC monsters are fire-weak, wouldn't comp-spam out-do para-spam? I can't wait to test this myself but unfortunaley cannot play till friday.
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - Dusk - 2011-03-14
IImaplers Wrote:But I thought that once DoT starts (for any skill) it should not be interrupted (for any skill), and that paralyze still interrupts it unlike the other DoT skills. Please correct me if I'm wrong. That's one important thing I have to test myself to be sure.
I digress, since comp is fire-based (and poison-based), and since most LHC monsters are fire-weak, wouldn't comp-spam out-do para-spam? I can't wait to test this myself but unfortunaley cannot play till friday.
DoT skills work properly; they just don't display right.
I spam charged Big Bang+Teleports at LHC.
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - Green4Ever - 2011-03-14
IImaplers Wrote:I digress, since comp is fire-based (and poison-based), and since most LHC monsters are fire-weak, wouldn't comp-spam out-do para-spam? I can't wait to test this myself but unfortunaley cannot play till friday.
Comp only hits 1 monster, so it wouldn't work very well since Mages are better at mobbing than 1v1
Dusk Wrote:I spam charged Big Bang+Teleports at LHC.
Same.
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - FrozNlite - 2011-03-14
Green4Ever Wrote:Yes, but this is not an "if" situation, this is the real thing. I'll worry about DoT when they actually fix it and make everything stack properly and last as long as it's supposed to.
That's not too wise of an outlook, especially if we know certain skills will see beneficial changes in the near future. End-game should always be the goal of high levels, and as it has appeared reading this thread, Fire Demon is definitely the best choice. I've had both maxed at one point or another, and decided to max FD over MR with the full SP reset given at the onset of Big Bang as the added DoT damage is just slightly more beneficial on an average basis than MR.
The thing with Mana Reflection is that, as stated earlier, it doesn't kick in very often - only 60% of the time and only on magic attacks. I know I'm reiterating the obvious, but it's something you don't feel while playing until you have it maxed and see how pitifully helpful it actually is. If the skill worked like PG with ANY damage received, reflecting at a 60% rate, it would be the no-question skill to max, especially now that it reflects a good 1000% of damage at max. But the bottom line is that you'll still have some points in MR at Lv. 200, and as the difference between that skill's effect (I believe my MR is maxed at 11; I think you're off by 3 points saying one will be Lv. 14 at max) and what MR can do at Lv. 30 is important to note, it becomes clear FD DoT damage at max is much more helpful than max MR.
But, of course, neither help by much.
Fire Demon or Mana Relfection? - Green4Ever - 2011-03-15
FrozNlite Wrote:That's not too wise of an outlook, especially if we know certain skills will see beneficial changes in the near future. End-game should always be the goal of high levels, and as it has appeared reading this thread, Fire Demon is definitely the best choice. I've had both maxed at one point or another, and decided to max FD over MR with the full SP reset given at the onset of Big Bang as the added DoT damage is just slightly more beneficial on an average basis than MR.
The thing with Mana Reflection is that, as stated earlier, it doesn't kick in very often - only 60% of the time and only on magic attacks. I know I'm reiterating the obvious, but it's something you don't feel while playing until you have it maxed and see how pitifully helpful it actually is. If the skill worked like PG with ANY damage received, reflecting at a 60% rate, it would be the no-question skill to max, especially now that it reflects a good 1000% of damage at max. But the bottom line is that you'll still have some points in MR at Lv. 200, and as the difference between that skill's effect (I believe my MR is maxed at 11; I think you're off by 3 points saying one will be Lv. 14 at max) and what MR can do at Lv. 30 is important to note, it becomes clear FD DoT damage at max is much more helpful than max MR.
But, of course, neither help by much.
We're getting SP Resets when the skills are changed, so I'm thinking in the present since Chaos Update is still a few months away.
But I see what you're saying and I guess FD is the way to go.
The 60% Success rate for MR was the only thing making me not like it. Plus nothing really hits very hard anymore for it to be able to deal large amounts of damage, so it does seem pretty useless.