Eosian Wrote:The question of when an exemption is or is not appropriate is questionable though. In the case of health insurance people should to some extent be able to opt out voluntarily. In the case of immunizations they should not. The first is a conscious choice to assume responsibility for yourself. The second is choosing to be a risk to others as a source of potential contagion.

TaliaNCo Wrote:Well, I had a major issue with the chicken pox vaccine. I honestly STILL think it's the dumbest mandatory immunization they ever came out with. I opted not to have my younger 2 vaccinated. Then when my son started school, they hounded me about it. That vaccine isn't even a guarantee that you will never get the chicken pox. My oldest 2 had the chicken pox when they were very young and got through it and over it quickly. Now, it's also much less of a risk to have it at a young age than when you're older. I had a girlfriend in high school that never got the chicken pox until she was 17. She was deathly ill to the point of having to be hospitalized. I remember her mother speaking to the doctor saying that she always tried desperately to keep her daughter away from anyone who had the chicken pox when she was young so she wouldn't get them. The doctor told her that was the wrong thing to do because it's much worse when you get it at an older age.

Also, I have questionable issues about vaccines and the rise in autism. That's another topic all together but I have so chosen not to vaccinate my children until they are at least 5 years of age when I believe their bodies are much more capable of handling them, as opposed to them being fragile newborns/infants. That is my own belief though and I don't expect anyone else to believe as I do. Though I should be able to make that choice as a parent to do what "I" feel is best for them, not what the federal government deems is best for them.

MasPan Wrote:[color="#cc8899"]As Eos stated, it's a case of the greater risk to a community, not to the child itself, that mandates vaccination.
The person who made the studies concerning the rise in autism, if memory serves, actually admitted that the studies were explicitly intended to benefit certain companies and result in financial gain for him - that he fudged/handpicked results to make his claim. Little/nothing he claimed was replicated either.

British Doctor Faked Data Linking Vaccines to Autism, and Aimed to Profit From It

Study Linking Childhood Vaccine And Autism Was Fraudulent


The chickenpox thing I actually agree with, the best vaccination is to catch it at a young age and get over it vice catching it in teen+ years. [/COLOR]

TaliaNCo Wrote:Neither has really been proven on either side of the autism issue. I've seen documentaries on that and have read things extensively. I also have friends who have severely autistic children. As I said, I have my own beliefs on that and don't expect others to agree with them.

The chicken pox one though.....infuriates me. What's next? Our children HAVE to have a flu shot in order to enroll in school? It's bullpomegranate.

Stereo Wrote:Could the autism thing go to another thread? It rests with the people making extraordinary claims (vis. "vaccinations cause autism") to provide proof to back up their claim. The null hypothesis, "vaccinations are unrelated to autism" is just the natural expectation of two unrelated items and doesn't need to be proven.

MasPan Wrote:[color="#cc8899"]Documentary =/= scientific study. While they can be very informative, ultimately remember that they are a vehicle for the director to present their argument/viewpoint. A scientific study is not, at least not when properly conducted.

Friends with autistic children are also not comparable to a scientific study - they represent a very narrow sampling group that you cannot draw a broad conclusion from.

Old, but useful

And yeah, we are sidetracking a bit. I'll happily leave the discussion as is, or comment further if a thread pops up about it. It's one of those arguments that really grates on my nerves, because it's an unfounded paranoia and whatnot, so I tend to get distracted by it/similar topics.[/COLOR]

TaliaNCo Wrote:What I meant to say was that I've seen documentaries on that particular doctor. I honestly wasn't swayed either way after watching and/or reading about him. Do you have children? Have you ever seen all of the little fliers they give you when your children receive vaccines with "most" of the possible side effects of such? I just believe that a newborn body isn't as capable as an older child is of helping ward off these possible side effects. The odds are much better when they're a bit older, in my opinion.

TaliaNCo Wrote:It absolutely has everything to do with this discussion. The government mandating certain things that the entire populous doesn't agree with, does take away our freedom of choice.

TaliaNCo Wrote:What I meant to say was that I've seen documentaries on that particular doctor. I honestly wasn't swayed either way after watching and/or reading about him. Do you have children? Have you ever seen all of the little fliers they give you when your children receive vaccines with "most" of the possible side effects of such? I just believe that a newborn body isn't as capable as an older child is of helping ward off these possible side effects. The odds are much better when they're a bit older, in my opinion.

Quote:Cowpox vaccine was believed able to immunize people against smallpox. At the time this vaccine was introduced, there was already a decline in the number of cases of smallpox. Japan introduced compulsory vaccination in 1872. In 1892 there were 165,774 cases of smallpox with 29,979 deaths despite the vaccination program. A stringent compulsory smallpox vaccine program, which prosecuted those refusing the vaccine, was instituted in England in 1867. Within 4 years 97.5 % of persons between 2 and 50 had been vaccinated. The following year England experienced the worst smallpox epidemic[1] in its history with 44,840 deaths. Between 1871 and 1880 the incidence of smallpox escalated from 28 to 46 per 100,000. The smallpox vaccine does not work.

Anonymous Moose Wrote:Edit: and some doctors are skeptical of whether vaccines are truely effective and wonder if they are simply a waste of money and a risk to our health.
http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james.htm

Corn Wrote:Sorry man, but I really don't think anyone here would agree with this statement.

Corn Wrote:First link on Google.

Quote:The outbreak itself is not unusual, though. What's unusual is that the health authorities slipped up and admitted that most of the people infected with mumps had already been vaccinated against mumps.

Anonymous Moose Wrote:and they made such a fuss over a version of the flu that is weaker and has killed less than the normal flu does.

Holypie Wrote:I hate when people say things like this. The reason the H1N1 flu didn't kill as many people as the normal flu is because the governments DID make a big fuss about it. If they didn't do you think people would have been vaccinated? Probably not. People also wouldn't have taken as many precautions to prevent the spread of the disease. That's the key word, prevent. What do you think would happen, hypothetically, if the government hadn't done anything and instead the disease went rampant killing many people? What then? Do you think you would complain more then or now? It pains me to see things like this since the only real way to know if a disaster were really averted or not is to see if people actually would have died from it, and it's impossible to do that. The best we can do is to try to prevent things from happening, and never know if it was successfully prevented.

Quote:For years flu experts and even flu vaccine manufacturers have admitted that it is nearly impossible to develop an effective flu vaccine

Anonymous Moose Wrote:I see no mention of small pox on that page, and your source seems to neglect to mention the fact that some of these diseases where in decline before the vaccine was introduced.

Corn Wrote:You were saying that "Edit: and some doctors are skeptical of whether vaccines are truely effective and wonder if they are simply a waste of money and a risk to our health.", not the proof or validity of smallpox vaccines.

And I would dig up more proof by simply Googling, but I'd rather you validate your sources because NewswithViews.com is riddled with conspiracy theories.

Anonymous Moose Wrote:You people live to use the standard cookie cutter excuses to not prove your points.
And I quoted a specific case, Small Pox.